HBP strike
 

FP -ASA, NFHS, USSSA - please id answer for any or all

Basic info: Pitch passes through the strike zone and hits the batter, not in the strike zone. Batter never was in the zone.

Is it a HBP or dead ball strike?
Does it matter if the batter is completely in the batter box?

More questions later.

So a batter lifted up their arm above their armpit and was hit by the ball that was over the plate, but not in the zone?

see OP edit in bold

Matrix:confused:

ASA
Strike - 7.4.A
The HBP is ignored based upon 8.1.F

This is a Softball 101 question and I know you know the answer. A ball that strikes the batter is a dead ball. If the pitch was a strike (for ANY reason), it's a dead ball strike. If not, and other criteria that I also know you're aware of are met, it's a HBP.

I agree with your interpretation after reading the rule.

Since the HBP is ignored, does this mean the ball is still live?
What if this was strike 3? Do we have an uncaught strike three?

Yes, I know, but having heard a recent conversation that some questioned it, I thought it might be good discussion.

Would you expect a problem explaining it to the OC?

Especially if the strike not announced before the batter is hit?


P.S. -- As part of teaching new umpires, always looking for better and easier ways to present things.

I differ in teaching this, as I do NOT say the HBP is ignored. The batter WAS hit by a pitch, and it IS a dead ball.

The difference is that there are three possible outcomes from HBP; HBP does not automatically result in an awarded base as is assumed by most.

1) HBP ruled a strike; dead ball, add strike to count, if #3, batter is out.

2) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) batter failed to attempt to avoid, and/or ball not completely in batter's box; dead ball, add ball to count, if #4, batter awarded a walk.

3) HBP ruled a ball and (depending on ruleset) ball completely in batter's box and batter made any required effort to attempt to avoid; dead ball, batter awarded first base.

So, in my version of teaching, the HBP isn't ignored at all, it has multiple possible results.

And, to the other question, it doesn't matter what or when you announce the result, you will get feedback on anything in category #1 and #2. It's your job to explain the rule, the result, and move on.

Thanks for the detail. :cool:

Of course, Steve is correct. I was using HBP more as a generic term usually relating to an award of the base. And it is a matter of fact that any pitch which contacts any part of the person or uniform of a batter is a dead ball without exception.

2 years ago in the 16 Champions Cup the Championship game ended on a checked swing HBP. Plate umpire call's Dead Ball Strike - Ball Game.
It was a 3 man crew The PU and Myself headed straight for the exit 3U stayed and was trying to throw the PU under the bus. 3U got chewed out by the UIC for this.

Specifics please for "3U stayed and was trying to throw the PU under the bus"

3U was saying to the coach that he did not think that the batter swung and that the batter should have been awarded first base. If the plate umpire had asked for help it would have been my call and she definitely offered at the pitch. When 3U finally got off the field he was trying to get me to agree with him that PU got it wrong.

The interesting thing about all of this is that both the of my partners where reprimanded for fraternizing with a coach in the Umpire parking area the day before and everyone was told that both of them where being sent home because of this. I was very surprised to see them on Sunday and really surprised that they had the Championship game.

I've read this entire subject/post and still can't picture the scenario of ball passing thru strike zone and hitting a batter out of the strike zone. What am I missing?

How does the ball get out of the zone and "hit" the batter? Gawd, I must be getting old.

Is the batter on the edge of the plate with their body but still outside the zone (crowding)? If this is the case "any" movement would seem to put the batter "in" the zone or "further away" from the zone based on what they do.....swinging, bunting, trying to get out of the way, whatever.

Splain please.......give me the scenario where this happened.

Think 3-dimensionally. The strike zone is that prism over the plate between [yada, yada, yada].

Must have been one of those 90 degree curve balls of which we hear from some many of the pitcher's parents :)

It's really not that hard to imagine. A curve ball just barely on the inside corner keeps curving and hits an elbow or knee or forearms on a check swing. Or a ball coming in more diagonally a la Kent Tekulve or Huston Street. The inside corner of the plate is not THAT far from the batters box, and body parts don't even always stay in the batter's box.

I got sucked into this. Hooray math!!

You wouldn't even need a curveball. Imagine a LH pitcher who throws with her feet *just* inside the legal pitching lane. The ball could easily be released from the hip a full 2 feet or more outside of the lane. This would be 36 inches off center from the plate.

When the pitch is released, the pitcher is moving forward. For simplicity, say the ball is 40 feet from the point of the plate at release. Many pitchers throw from closer (legally).

The pitch arrives at the front of the plate on the innermost corner, belly button high. Strike all day long. The center of the 4-inch wide ball is now 11 inches "inside" relative to the centerline of the plate: It has moved 47 inches toward the batter in about 38.5 feet (18 inches from point of plate to front corner black).

The back of the batters box should be about 50 inches behind the front of the plate, assuming a plate-centered 7 foot box. The ball will move 5.1 inches toward the batter in this distance, placing the center of the ball roughly 16 inches inside the centerline of the plate, or 8 inches inside relative to the strike zone. The inside of the ball is 10 inches from the edge of the plate. Lots of batters' knees, elbows, and hips live there.

I made a picture to help me figure this out. Now imagine if the pitch had an inside break...

http://s24.postimg.org/dsy4v2pj9/HBP_Strike_Pitch.jpg

TL;dr: Totally possible. Dead ball strike every time. Have fun selling it.