B/r goes to 1st-but it's not a 3KD

[chuck chopper]

We have had way too many B/R's going to 1st on "what they thought" was a 3rd strike dropped but it wasn't a 3KD situation. Thus you know the drill, catcher throws-all runners are now stealing, etc. Is it proper to use ASA 8-7-P-"note" (continuing to run and drawing a throw) ?

[RKBUmp]

Why shouldnt the defense be smart enough to know it is not a D3K and actually make a play on the correct runner?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chuck chopper

We have had way too many B/R's going to 1st on "what they thought" was a 3rd strike dropped but it wasn't a 3KD situation. Thus you know the drill, catcher throws-all runners are now stealing, etc. Is it proper to use ASA 8-7-P-"note" (continuing to run and drawing a throw) ?

The BR is exempt from that type of INT on a U3K, which is usually interpreted to include mistaken situations. It is also generally accepted that we can't tell if the BR was doing a deliberate deceit.

[chuck chopper]

I can understand a firm stance as you mention. However around here 98% of our games are 11-13, 14-18 Recreation Council level, and not School ball or Private Club level players. Our darn Coaches don't know the rules, and they are the ones sending the B/r.

[chuck chopper]

Cecil, I did see in the note it's not applicable to a B/r who IS ENTITLED, this I was thinking maybe I have something here ?

[RKBUmp]

That word was not in the rule until last year and was inserted without any explanation nor has there been any rules clarification published regarding the rule being treated any differently than it was in the past.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chuck chopper

We have had way too many B/R's going to 1st on "what they thought" was a 3rd strike dropped but it wasn't a 3KD situation. Thus you know the drill, catcher throws-all runners are now stealing, etc. Is it proper to use ASA 8-7-P-"note" (continuing to run and drawing a throw) ?

It is poor wording and somewhat ambiguous. If the player is a batter-runner they must be entitled and if they are entitled, their running violates no rule.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chuck chopper

I can understand a firm stance as you mention. However around here 98% of our games are 11-13, 14-18 Recreation Council level, and not School ball or Private Club level players. Our darn Coaches don't know the rules, and they are the ones sending the B/r.

That's on the coaches to fix, and not the umpires to fix for them.

For crying out loud, this isn't the DP/FLEX rule! How hard is it for coaches and players to understand that batters can only advance to first base on an uncaught third strike when first is unoccupied or when there are two outs?

[BretMan]

From the ASA website:

A common item for discussion among umpires is game management. The discussion centers around ways umpires can achieve a game without issues. Sometimes the discussion leaves out an important detail … “Game Control”. Game Control can be described as taking charge of an unusual situation before the situation results in chaos. A good tool for game control and game management is often referred to as “preventive umpiring”. In fact, if umpires use preventive umpiring techniques then game control and game management would become easier. Therefore, good “Game Control” leads to good “Game Management”.

Umpires should not use the term game control as a tool for an umpire to be involved every situation occurring on the ball field. Game control should seldom, if never, be noticed: Example, if we have a batter-runner who starts to run to 1B thinking ball four has been awarded; the umpire should call “time” and bring the batter back to the plate. The same holds true with runners on 1B and 2B and the batter takes off for 1B thinking it is ball four causing runners to advance. To eliminate confusion for both the offense and the defense, the umpire should call “time.” An umpire with good game control who gives a loud “time” can prevent the chaos before it gets a chance to start.


Just call time! End the chaos!

[Manny A]

FED Case Play 8.1.1.B directs the plate umpire to "forcefully announce that B2 is out" in this scenario when B2 is not allowed to advance to first base. I use that under all codes. Believe it applies to all.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chuck chopper

I can understand a firm stance as you mention. However around here 98% of our games are 11-13, 14-18 Recreation Council level, and not School ball or Private Club level players. Our darn Coaches don't know the rules, and they are the ones sending the B/r.

11-13 is old enough to know this rule. It's not your fault if they don't. This is NOT interference.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

FED Case Play 8.1.1.B directs the plate umpire to "forcefully announce that B2 is out" in this scenario when B2 is not allowed to advance to first base. I use that under all codes. Believe it applies to all.

Yes, but just once. Don't be that umpire that continually yells that the batter is out over and over. Call it. Once. Like you would any other play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

From the ASA website:

A common item for discussion among umpires is game management. The discussion centers around ways umpires can achieve a game without issues. Sometimes the discussion leaves out an important detail … “Game Control”. Game Control can be described as taking charge of an unusual situation before the situation results in chaos. A good tool for game control and game management is often referred to as “preventive umpiring”. In fact, if umpires use preventive umpiring techniques then game control and game management would become easier. Therefore, good “Game Control” leads to good “Game Management”.

Umpires should not use the term game control as a tool for an umpire to be involved every situation occurring on the ball field. Game control should seldom, if never, be noticed: Example, if we have a batter-runner who starts to run to 1B thinking ball four has been awarded; the umpire should call “time” and bring the batter back to the plate. The same holds true with runners on 1B and 2B and the batter takes off for 1B thinking it is ball four causing runners to advance. To eliminate confusion for both the offense and the defense, the umpire should call “time.” An umpire with good game control who gives a loud “time” can prevent the chaos before it gets a chance to start.


Just call time! End the chaos!

And every single clinician I've ever discussed this with agrees this advice is horrible.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It is poor wording and somewhat ambiguous. If the player is a batter-runner they must be entitled and if they are entitled, their running violates no rule.

Do you disagree with my earlier comment?

"which is usually interpreted to include mistaken situations"

kinds of mistakes,
1) U3K but out
2) uncaught strike 2
3) not a strike

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

And every single clinician I've ever discussed this with agrees this advice is horrible.

Especially if it causes a disadvantage to either team , or is that what you meant?