Just one of those nights.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

BRING IT TO THE COACH'S ATTENTION AND LET THE COACH ADDRESS IT. IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO COACH PLAYERS OR ORDER THEM TO DO THINGS.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And, IMO, anyone who blows off an observed violation (and I'm not talking about a guess) because that "isn't my call" or the perceived assignment of areas or bases isn't doing their job.

DITTO to both, a precedent.

How many more times do we have to say that especially in HS/MS; we should not be telling players to do anything; and over and over again, the proper jewelry statement is "s/he can't play with that" or "s/he forgot the jewelry" NOT "take it off" or "remove it"?

And yes, Manny, your cases are well stated by you, but are improperly worded and "inform the player" must be through the coach. None of them say anything about directly to the player.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

DITTO to both, a precedent.

How many more times do we have to say that especially in HS/MS; we should not be telling players to do anything; and over and over again, the proper jewelry statement is "s/he can't play with that" or "s/he forgot the jewelry" NOT "take it off" or "remove it"?

And yes, Manny, your cases are well stated by you, but are improperly worded and "inform the player" must be through the coach. None of them say anything about directly to the player.

Where does the book say inform the player through the coach. The book says inform the player, not inform the coach to inform the player.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I had one of those nights today. JV DH, on bases first game, plate the second.

3rd inning of game 1, visiting team is hammering the home team. Home team pitcher steps on with the hands apart, brings the hands together, separates the hands, brings them back together, then pitches. I call her for an illegal pitch. (I had warned her earlier, but apparently she didn't understand the warning. I explain to her what is called and she really has no clue, so the coach comes out and I explain it to the coach. Finally the pitcher understands what is going on, and corrects the action, but starts something illegal on subsequent pitches (more on that later). As soon as we finally get the pitcher understanding what she is doing, the visiting coach says I want a courtesy runner for my catcher. He comes the CR, who is wearing a nose ring (which I had asked her to take out before the game when she handed me a bat to check. Now we have a warning for the nose ring, to the team. The plate ump, catcher, and batter are all laughing because everything is going on.

Finally we get back underway with the nose ring out, and the pitcher getting the first part of the motion correct, but now she brings the hands together and separates them almost instantly. I finally say I'm just not going to call it and will tell the coach, since it was a 15 run mercy at the end of that inning anyway.

The second game went ok with me at that plate except for those dreaded words from the catchers "this is my first time catching" Only one foul hit the face mask (off the catcher) and only a couple missed pitches hit unprotected areas.

It also didn't help that the game time temp for game 2 was 42 degrees with 15 Mph winds.

Final combined score. 6 innings played total, visiting team 36, home team 6 (5 of which came in the top of the third (teams switch home and away designations for the second game of a DH).

Long cold night.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

The jewelry wearing player was brought to the attention of the coach, and the coach thought she had taken it out. It was also brought up at the coaches meeting as well because she was one of the team captains.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Where does the book say inform the player through the coach. The book says inform the player, not inform the coach to inform the player.

Do not get in the habit of talking to the players. No good comes of it.

What's more likely to happen:

1- "oh, yeah, the umpire DID tell me already to take the nose ring out, coach."

2- "He said, it's okay...you can play with it since you can't take it out."

3- "He never told me anything about it."

You think she's going to be honest? I'd say 1 is least likely.

Just tell the coach at the pregame. If it's seen, you restrict to dugout.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

And yes, Manny, your cases are well stated by you, but are improperly worded and "inform the player" must be through the coach. None of them say anything about directly to the player.

C'mon folks, there is ZERO, NOTHING, NADA, that says umpires are forbidden from talking directly to a player. I challenge anybody to find specific language in a rule book or umpire manual or anywhere else that makes this a directive.

If you don't want to do it because your association tells you not to, you personally feel it's inappropriate, whatever, that's fine. I don't have a problem doing it, and will continue to do it until I see something in writing telling me I cannot.

I'm not saying I will carry on conversations with players. But what's the big deal with a subtle, "Hey batter, you need to take that baggy sweatshirt off before you bat," or, "Hey pitcher, you need to wipe your fingers when you adjust your mouthpiece"? Do you really need to call Time and go tell the coach to take care of the issues?

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

C'mon folks, there is ZERO, NOTHING, NADA, that says umpires are forbidden from talking directly to a player. I challenge anybody to find specific language in a rule book or umpire manual or anywhere else that makes this a directive.

If you don't want to do it because your association tells you not to, you personally feel it's inappropriate, whatever, that's fine. I don't have a problem doing it, and will continue to do it until I see something in writing telling me I cannot.

I'm not saying I will carry on conversations with players. But what's the big deal with a subtle, "Hey batter, you need to take that baggy sweatshirt off before you bat," or, "Hey pitcher, you need to wipe your fingers when you adjust your mouthpiece"? Do you really need to call Time and go tell the coach to take care of the issues?

The two cases you posed are not like the situation where someone will be restricted to the bench. A sweatshirt? Wiping off fingers....You're not restricting here. Same idea with telling the batter to keep one foot in the batter's box. The penalties are insignificant compared to a girl not abiding by the jewelry rule.

Get the coach involved. Specifically because you ASKED him/her to verify that their team is legally and properly equipped and the response was YES. Now, you want to tell them otherwise.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

Do not get in the habit of talking to the players. No good comes of it.

What's more likely to happen:

1- "oh, yeah, the umpire DID tell me already to take the nose ring out, coach."

2- "He said, it's okay...you can play with it since you can't take it out."

3- "He never told me anything about it."

You think she's going to be honest? I'd say 1 is least likely.

Just tell the coach at the pregame. If it's seen, you restrict to dugout.

You are stating that if you tell the coach at the pre-game that a player has jewelry on and then in the game you see it on you can restrict to the dug out at that time.

You are DEAD WRONG on this. When a player is illegally equipped in the game, the team shall be issued a warning.

There is a casebook play which somewhat illustrates this ruling. 3-2-12 Sit. D

The comment indicates: The jewelry rule only applies to players in the game, not on the bench.

At the time of the pre-game conference, there were no players in the game, because the game had not begun yet.

You can't penalize a player on the bench during the game if you see them with jewelry on either. They can't be penalized until they are in the game, at which time a violation has occurred.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

The two cases you posed are not like the situation where someone will be restricted to the bench. A sweatshirt? Wiping off fingers....You're not restricting here. Same idea with telling the batter to keep one foot in the batter's box. The penalties are insignificant compared to a girl not abiding by the jewelry rule.

Get the coach involved. Specifically because you ASKED him/her to verify that their team is legally and properly equipped and the response was YES. Now, you want to tell them otherwise.

I'm just addressing the general comments that others here allude that umpires are not allowed to talk to players. That's just not true.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm just addressing the general comments that others here allude that umpires are not allowed to talk to players. That's just not true.

We would all do well to recognize that the individuals making those comments do not play their high school games under NFHS rules or use the NFHS umpire manual as their guide. They write their own manual because no one else knows how to handle the game in their state, which is obviously diferent than any other state.

Temper your impression and/or concern about their comments (and opinions) based on that knowledge.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

We would all do well to recognize that the individuals making those comments do not play their high school games under NFHS rules or use the NFHS umpire manual as their guide. They write their own manual because no one else knows how to handle the game in their state, which is obviously diferent than any other state.

Temper your impression and/or concern about their comments (and opinions) based on that knowledge.

Fine. Does their rule set have a rule prohibiting umpires from talking to players? It would be the only one if it does, as far as I know.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

We would all do well to recognize that the individuals making those comments do not play their high school games under NFHS rules or use the NFHS umpire manual as their guide. They write their own manual because no one else knows how to handle the game in their state, which is obviously diferent than any other state.

Temper your impression and/or concern about their comments (and opinions) based on that knowledge.

You sure have a gift for saying more than you write!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

We would all do well to recognize that the individuals making those comments do not play their high school games under NFHS rules or use the NFHS umpire manual as their guide. They write their own manual because no one else knows how to handle the game in their state, which is obviously diferent than any other state.

Temper your impression and/or concern about their comments (and opinions) based on that knowledge.

I am one of the main posters saying talk just to coaches and inform players through coaches.
I am not involved with those writing their own manual or being different than NFHS.

My training and my received critiques for years have been not to give instructions directly to players for several reasons. This has accumulated over the years (28), so I can't cite specific sources, but there have been several. Reasons have been coach's objections, avoiding favoritism, avoiding liability, distracting players, etc.

Yes, I know the manual and the cases might imply direct communication; but don't specifically say so and I believe can be interpreted as via coaches, if that is the association or umpire policy.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I am one of the main posters saying talk just to coaches and inform players through coaches.
I am not involved with those writing their own manual or being different than NFHS.

My training and my received critiques for years have been not to give instructions directly to players for several reasons. This has accumulated over the years (28), so I can't cite specific sources, but there have been several. Reasons have been coach's objections, avoiding favoritism, avoiding liability, distracting players, etc.

Yes, I know the manual and the cases might imply direct communication; but don't specifically say so and I believe can be interpreted as via coaches, if that is the association or umpire policy.

FWIW, I wasn't referencing you. IMO, you stated a personal preference on how to manage your game; others stated NFHS written policy is just wrong.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

FWIW, I wasn't referencing you. IMO, you stated a personal preference on how to manage your game; others stated NFHS written policy is just wrong.

I did not say that Steve. I'm in the state that is not NFHS, but I PERSONALLY avoid having communications with the players on certain situations.

But I never said NFHS is wrong. Not once.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

You are stating that if you tell the coach at the pre-game that a player has jewelry on and then in the game you see it on you can restrict to the dug out at that time.

You are DEAD WRONG on this. When a player is illegally equipped in the game, the team shall be issued a warning.

There is a casebook play which somewhat illustrates this ruling. 3-2-12 Sit. D

The comment indicates: The jewelry rule only applies to players in the game, not on the bench.

At the time of the pre-game conference, there were no players in the game, because the game had not begun yet.

You can't penalize a player on the bench during the game if you see them with jewelry on either. They can't be penalized until they are in the game, at which time a violation has occurred.

You said "He(re) comes the CR, who is wearing a nose ring (which I had asked her to take out before the game when she handed me a bat to check."

Why ask her, under your argument to me, to take it out if she's not playing?

No I wouldn't restrict - I'd follow the rule, which is to warn. But I'd handle the whole thing differently - starting with not relaying any messages through the players themselves.

Let me clarify. You call the coaches and captains out - the captain of the team comes out wearing studded earrings and a nose ring. You ask the coaches if their team is legally and properly equipped and if all equipment is safe and legal. You then remind coaches and captains that there is to be absolutely no jewelry in the game under Fed rules, like the captain #25 is currently wearing. "Right coach?????????????" (As I look at the nose ring)

If they are listed on the starting lineup, they should be ready to play, and come to the pre game meeting prepared to play - with no jewelry. If they are a sub, they should be prepared to come on the field (They need to be "legally and properly equipped"). They're not required to take out the jewelry if they're sitting on the bench, but they should be ready to play if called upon. If that means take out the jewelry, then do it. They know this rule. It's in EVERY Fed game they play.

You yourself made note that "The jewelry wearing player was brought to the attention of the coach, and the coach thought she had taken it out. It was also brought up at the coaches meeting as well because she was one of the team captains." (She's a captain. She SHOULD know better.) So how many "reminders" do they need here??? Did you not already say something 2 times about the same player? I know it's not a formal warning yet though, but really coach???????

Here's the issue. You saw this girl with the nose ring before the game 2 times. You told her 2 times. You told the coach. She comes out on the field ready to play with it in. How many times do you need to say it before these players do it?

If we tell just the coach, instead of worrying about telling the player, we then can impose penalties that are necessitated by the rules rather than having to have the "reminder" carousel go on as much as it did.

It's just my opinion, but when I saw the nose ring prior to the game, I would have told the coach that #25 had a nose ring that MUST come out if she's playing. At the pregame, I then would have asked the coach to verify that his players were legally and properly equipped, and when I saw the nose ring again at pregame, I would have told the coach AGAIN, this time more sternly - reminding them of the penalties for jewelry wearing during the game. And I'm pretty certain that #25 would NOT have come on the field with the nose ring in her nose in the third inning, since I didn't tell the reminder twice over to some 14 year old child. I talked to the responsible adult who can be held liable for the team's actions or inactions.


Just my feeling on it. But I could be wrong. It won't be the first time and it won't be the last.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

C'mon folks, there is ZERO, NOTHING, NADA, that says umpires are forbidden from talking directly to a player. I challenge anybody to find specific language in a rule book or umpire manual or anywhere else that makes this a directive.

If you don't want to do it because your association tells you not to, you personally feel it's inappropriate, whatever, that's fine. I don't have a problem doing it, and will continue to do it until I see something in writing telling me I cannot.

I'm not saying I will carry on conversations with players. But what's the big deal with a subtle, "Hey batter, you need to take that baggy sweatshirt off before you bat," or, "Hey pitcher, you need to wipe your fingers when you adjust your mouthpiece"? Do you really need to call Time and go tell the coach to take care of the issues?

Sorry, Manny, but I'm not telling a 15 year old girl to take off an article of clothing. We're scared to walk into a dugout to check a bat but have no problem telling a player to take her shirt off