Moving the bat

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by charliej47

There have been times when I have kicked the helmet out of the way.

I have to, but not on purpose. Was watching a play and didn't see the helmet and kicked it.

I did not hear the story directly from the umpire it happened to so cannot verify its truth, but I was told we did have parents locally that filed a claim against an umpire for a damaged bat. The umpire tossed the bat out of the way and it hit the chain link fence. Parents said it had broken the bat and filed a claim for damages.

[3afan]

I had a catcher recently where on every batted ball she tossed her mask into the left side batter's box right where I was going. I finally explained to her that the ump will always go that way on a batted ball so would she please stop tossing her mask in my path. She said she didnt know and she stopped.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by 3afan

I had a catcher recently where on every batted ball she tossed her mask into the left side batter's box right where I was going. I finally explained to her that the ump will always go that way on a batted ball so would she please stop tossing her mask in my path. She said she didnt know and she stopped.

The F2 habit I hate is when they come up, the helmet comes off, and it goes straight back into you. Usually hits one of your hands. I will normally say somethig to the coach and it is usually taken care of quickly.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Gotta love it:

For the most part, people are advocating leaving the bat alone, saying they have never had a problem. I'm not sure how they are defining "problem" but I'll take their word for it.

Fair question.

I've never seen (while umpiring or observing umpires):
A) A thrown ball hit a discarded bat.
B) A runner or fielder trip over a discarded bat.
C) A play affected in any way, positive or negative, by a discarded bat (other than, of course, the batted ball hitting a bat or a discarded bat hitting a batted ball ... which is surely outside the scope of what we're talking about here)

I do want to ask ... which of these problems have you seen happen that you and your association is trying to avoid by moving the bat?

What I'm saying is that I know thousands of umpires who move the bat and none of us have had a "problem." Unless you consider someone saying, "thanks for getting the bat out of the way" a problem.

So why are those who don't move the bat so adamant that those who do move it are wrong? Is it a "that's baseball" argument? I love that one.

Another fair question. I have witnessed all of the following (all as observer / UIC, never as umpire):

A) Umpire missed SOMETHING while either moving to the bat or reaching for the bat (and yes, this can be fixed with increased training) - "something" includes more than one obstruction, one obviously missed base that I and everyone but him saw - that one resulted in an ejection eventually, one ball that was thrown out of play and the umpire incorrectly ruled where the runners were when the ball was thrown. Probably others in this category that I don't definitively recall right now.
B) One threatened lawsuit that was settled. Bat was expensive. Player's father claimed bat was broken when the umpire tossed it aside into the pole of the fence. He didn't throw it hard - but it was enough to give at least a shred of validity to the possibility that the player's father was right. The league paid for the bat.
C) One innocuous discarded bat was picked up and thrown aside, hitting an on deck batter who was behind the umpire watching the play. (Worse on this one, there was never any potential play at the plate - no runners on, typical single to right - no need at ALL for the umpire to even think about the bat ... but he did.)
D) One discarded bat was picked up and tossed, landing on and breaking the snap on a discarded catcher's mask.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Fair question.

I've never seen (while umpiring or observing umpires):
A) A thrown ball hit a discarded bat.
B) A runner or fielder trip over a discarded bat.
C) A play affected in any way, positive or negative, by a discarded bat (other than, of course, the batted ball hitting a bat or a discarded bat hitting a batted ball ... which is surely outside the scope of what we're talking about here)

I do want to ask ... which of these problems have you seen happen that you and your association is trying to avoid by moving the bat?
I have seen runners move around the bat or come up lame because of the bat's location with respect to the plate. In those cases, the catcher did not move it since she probably felt it was beneficial for her not to. I've seen a runner slide into a bat and because of the way it was positioned and the batter's boxes being dug out a bit, it went flying up and hit the catcher in the face.

Another fair question. I have witnessed all of the following (all as observer / UIC, never as umpire):

A) Umpire missed SOMETHING while either moving to the bat or reaching for the bat (and yes, this can be fixed with increased training) - "something" includes more than one obstruction, one obviously missed base that I and everyone but him saw - that one resulted in an ejection eventually, one ball that was thrown out of play and the umpire incorrectly ruled where the runners were when the ball was thrown. Probably others in this category that I don't definitively recall right now. It's unfortunate that the umpire is unable to move a bat and look ahead at the same time. If he can't do that, I suspect that there is plenty more that he can't do. Can't someone tie their shoes without staring at the laces?
B) One threatened lawsuit that was settled. Bat was expensive. Player's father claimed bat was broken when the umpire tossed it aside into the pole of the fence. He didn't throw it hard - but it was enough to give at least a shred of validity to the possibility that the player's father was right. The league paid for the bat. This umpire certainly didn't follow the protocol that I have established
C) One innocuous discarded bat was picked up and thrown aside, hitting an on deck batter who was behind the umpire watching the play. (Worse on this one, there was never any potential play at the plate - no runners on, typical single to right - no need at ALL for the umpire to even think about the bat ... but he did.) This umpire certainly didn't follow the protocol that I have established.
D) One discarded bat was picked up and tossed, landing on and breaking the snap on a discarded catcher's mask.This umpire certainly didn't follow the protocol that I have established.

I don't buy the "broken equipment" argument. A player can take 500 hits at batting practice and drop/toss the bat every time they get a hit in a game and they want to blame the umpire for the broken bat? These are the same cheats and liars who want their entire 2002 Honda Accord painted when they get into a fender-bender.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I don't buy the "broken equipment" argument. A player can take 500 hits at batting practice and drop/toss the bat every time they get a hit in a game and they want to blame the umpire for the broken bat? These are the same cheats and liars who want their entire 2002 Honda Accord painted when they get into a fender-bender.

You may not buy it, but the argument of damaging someone else's equipment is valid.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Fair question.

I've never seen (while umpiring or observing umpires):
A) A thrown ball hit a discarded bat.
B) A runner or fielder trip over a discarded bat.
C) A play affected in any way, positive or negative, by a discarded bat

I do want to ask ... which of these problems have you seen happen that you and your association is trying to avoid by moving the bat?

Not in softball but in baseball I have seen:

A thrown ball hit a discarded bat a couple of times.
A fielder (catcher) trip over a discarded bat.
Runners trying to avoid a discarded bat several times.
So therefore "C)" is true.

If they have time I quite often see either catchers move a bat or a scoring runner grab the bat.

I have also seen professional umpires move or even pick up a bat. Because they have 3-4 umpires on the field they sometimes have more time to do this than a PU in a one-man or two-man game so it may or may not be practical for a smaller crew to do so.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Since there is no requirement to discard the bat, maybe there should just be a rule which makes in INT any time the discarded bat affects a play or player.

And yes, I am being facetious, but OTOH, why would this be a bad idea?.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I've been hit by a thrown ball and a batted ball; I've tripped up both runner and fielder; I have never been intentionally moved by anyone during a live ball, nor have I ever been accused of interfering with a play.

What am I?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I've been hit by a thrown ball and a batted ball; I've tripped up both runner and fielder; I have never been intentionally moved by anyone during a live ball, nor have I ever been accused of interfering with a play.

What am I?

An umpire? No, that can't be it... someone would accuse the umpire of interference for some of those things ...

A base?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I've been hit by a thrown ball and a batted ball; I've tripped up both runner and fielder; I have never been intentionally moved by anyone during a live ball, nor have I ever been accused of interfering with a play.

What am I?

A jackass?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You may not buy it, but the argument of damaging someone else's equipment is valid.

Heck, that can be argued when you accidentally kick or step on a bat while it's on the field. For that matter, someone could complain that I did something to the bat when I picked it up to inspect it during pre-game.

It's gotten to the point where umpires should do nothing but call the game like automatons and then leave. We cannot show emotion, we cannot engage in friendly conversation with anyone, we cannot touch the ball or bat or mask for fear of someone perceiving it as favoritism.

When did softball become so anal when it came to umpires being caring? When I umpired baseball my first ten years or so, we would do things that nobody would bat an eye about. During between-inning warm-ups, if the catcher missed a pitch, the plate umpire would reach into his/her bag and toss another ball to the catcher, not make the catcher go back to the backstop and get the loose ball. The same was the case on foul balls down the line; the plate umpire would give the catcher another ball, and the loose ball would eventually get tossed back in to the umpire. On a play where the catcher would toss his mask off, the plate umpire wouldn't think twice about picking it up after play ended and handing it to the catcher. Same with the bat on a foul ball when the batter would run down to first and then come back.

That kind of stuff is verboten on the softball field. And I really don't know why the powers-that-be make it that way. Do we really have to be less human than our baseball counterparts? Is it really that harmful to the game? Does it take that much away from the professionalism of the umpire? I just don't get it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

When did softball become so anal when it came to umpires being caring?

When the NCAA interjected themselves in the rules part of the game and when the manufacturers started selling equipment which reduced the need of a certain skill level to play. JMHO

And I don't think it is the "powers that be" decide that as a control decision, but as a reaction to the players, coaches and parents. Again, JMHO

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Fair question.

I've never seen (while umpiring or observing umpires):
A) A thrown ball hit a discarded bat.
B) A runner or fielder trip over a discarded bat.
C) A play affected in any way, positive or negative, by a discarded bat (other than, of course, the batted ball hitting a bat or a discarded bat hitting a batted ball ... which is surely outside the scope of what we're talking about here)

I've seen all of these. They were all rather interesting plays. I still don't move the bat in any leagues remotely approaching competitive play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I've seen all of these. They were all rather interesting plays. I still don't move the bat in any leagues remotely approaching competitive play.

Why does "remotely approaching competitive play" matter?