I saw this one a couple of nights ago.

10U ASA game. R1 on 2nd, 2 outs. B2 hits a high pop up behind 2B (VERY SHALLOW center). While looking up at the ball, F6 unintentionally knocks down R1 who is on their way to 3B. F6 has no opportunity to make a play on the ball. Ball drops in. R1 gets up, goes to 3B, delays for a second while her coach urges her to go to home, goes, then slides about 5 feet short of F2 who tags her out. Home team coach erupts saying that she should get home. Umpire says no.

My opinion: Good call because of the distance the ball was hit, the delay at 3B, and the slide 5 feet short of home. I do not think she would've made it home without the obstruction.

I know this is a HTBT, but your opinions?

Assuming the catcher was not also obstructing (leading to the short slide)...

Knocking the runner down gives her quite a bit of leeway, but the chances are if the ball was fielded cleanly, she would not have made home anyway, so this was a good call.

Pausing for a second at 3rd probably did not "make up" for the delay in her progress from being knocked down, but the short throw to home from F8 (or whoever) most likely means she would have only been protected to 3rd.

HTBT for sure. Sounds like a good call.

BUJ,

Agree with Tom. HTBT.
From your description of
the play R1 probably only protected to 3B. Remembering
how 10U's play, sounds like a good call.

glen

). While looking up at the ball, F6 unintentionally knocks down R1 who is on their way to 3B. F6 has no opportunity to make a play on the ball. Ball drops in.


Sounds like it could be interferance on the runner

Interferance on the runner was my first thought until I read where the post said F6 had no play on the fly ball. IMHO I think it was a good call unless F2 obstructed R1 by blocking the plate without the ball.

Michael

A dissenting opinion...
 

I disagree with my esteemed colleagues.....

(How many of you have ever been called "esteemed" before?)

Someone (Steve M, I believe) has said that as a rule of thumb, obstruction is worth at least two strides to the runner. Since this runner was "knocked down", according to the description, she probably deserves greater leeway.

My assumption here is that F2 is near the plate when she receives the ball. IMHO, the obstruction is worth the five feet by which she was out. I will award her home.

One thing that I try to use with obstruction is to give all benefit of the doubt to the offense. After all, the defense violated.

A few details missing here....
 

Did the BU or PU ever give the obstruction sign? If so, when did the arm get dropped? Knowing this will determine if the girl was protected to home or not. The coach should have been watching for this. If the arm was dropped shortly before 3rd, she ain't getting home from me. I know a lot of the umpires I call with will drop the arm shortly before the obstructed runner gets to the base the blue will give her. (Award her ) This lets the coach and/or runner know where the protection is to. Go any further and it's at your own risk.

It is a HTBT, but knowing when the arm was dropped on the delayed ball signal will also determine if it was a good call or not. At least in my eyes.

Rick

Re: A few details missing here....
 

I don't think that you can make the determination of protection at the time of the obstruction. The umpire needs to hold the delayed dead ball signal until the entire play is complete.

Play: R1 on second, base hit to outfield. F6 bumps R1 off stride between second and third.

If you have only decided to protect the player to third and the outfielder bobbles the ball, but still recovers and throws to get the runner on a banger at home, are you still going to call her out? If she would not have been obstructed between second and third, she would have scored standing up.

In my opinion, obstruction is one of the least understood and inconsistantly applied rules by umpires. It allows for a tremendous amount of judgement and "what if" by the umpire. I think that a lot of umpires are too quick to drop their "protection" and penalize the offense instead of the defense.

Re: A dissenting opinion...
 

I would agree, except for the pause at 3rd. That reads as enough time for the five feet she needed at home; not the obstruction. Then I read "delays for a second" again and thought a second might not be enough for five feet. Anyway, that would be my basis for choosing between 3rd and home.

And I agree with "I don't think that you can make the determination of protection at the time of the obstruction. The umpire needs to hold the delayed dead ball signal until the entire play is complete"

Disagree
 

I disagree with holding the arm out until the play stops. If you do so, you are still indicating the obstruction is protecting the runner. You can't determing after the play if you uphold the obstruction or not. This is really, really, placing the runner in jeopardy. If they think they are protected, they're gonna run. If they don't see the arm up, they realize the obstruction is no longer protecting them and they are advancing at their own risk. They can't read your mind, you have to give a signal. They especially can't read your mind, if you don't make the decision until the play is over with.

Rick

Re: Re: A few details missing here....
 

Rick,

I'm not trying to be argumentative, cantankerous, or any of those other "McGriff" type things. :)

How would you rule on this play and what signals and mechanics would you use? Thanks

Not at all
 

I don't consider this argumentative. It's just a good discussion. You might even change my mind, over time. Doubtful, but possible. Gotta show me in the rule bool to convince me.

In the scenario you gave, it would depend on the loaction of the ball in the OF as to which base I give, and also the amount of contact. If the runner in knocked down, I'll give home, if it's just a slight bump, it depends on the momentum, the change in it and the position of the ball at the obstruction. I probably won't even consider a bobble, unless it happens during or before the obstruction. I still have to think you gotta give the offense the signal only until you quit protecting the runner. If you have the arm out and aren't protecting the runner, why is it still out and how will the offense know you aren't protecting them anymore?

Rick

I disagree with the whole notion that the umpire holds the arm out as long as runner protection is in force and that dropping the arm signals that the runner is no longer protected.

All dropping the arm signifies is that I believe I have held the signal long enough for the players to see that I've got something to say once this play is over.

The judgment I must make on obstruction is "What base would this runner have achieved had there been no obstruction?"

In the general case, how can I possibly make that judgment until the play is complete? Are you saying you decide at the time of the obstruction how this play will finish? You can't. You can make a provisional judgment that you are protecting the runner to the next base, or for two bases or whatever, but how the play actually does unfold can also affect the final judgment.

??????
 

But, then, how does the offense know what to do? You are handicapping them by not letting them know the situation. Do they just stop running and hope the umpire gives them the correct number of bases. Or, worse, that they even saw the obstruction. By not signalling, you are giving the advantage to the defense, who committed the obstruction in the 1st place. To me, this just puts the offense in a no win situation.

To add some extra details to the original post...

From what I remember, the runner was knocked to her bottom, looked at the umpire, got up, and ran to 3B. (Remember, this is 10U.)

The ball was hit about 6-10 feet behind second base. This was very shallow center.

The stop at 3B was about one or two seconds, long enough for her to realize that everyone was yelling for her to run home.

Unfotunaltely, I was watching the runner and so I didn't see if the umpire had a DDB signal or not.

I don't believe obstruction on F2 is a possibility. F2 had the ball about a full second before the runner got there, from what I remember.

Hope that clears up some things.

Re: ??????
 

Interesting argument, but how about the offense just uses good base running judgment just like they would any other time, and then depends on the umpire to award as necessary once the play is over.

Otherwise, you are cheating the offense out of a possible base award because you decided the award too soon.

Sometimes you can judge the base award right away, but not in the general case. You will have a preliminary judgment on the award, but it is only preliminary until the play completes. You should let the play complete and then make any necessary adjustment to the judgment on the base award.

Notice what John said in his last post. He was watching the runner and not the umpire to see if he gave a delayed dead ball signal. Guess what. Neither was any one else watching the umpire for a signal. Only the smartest coaches in upper level ball are watching either. They watch the runner or the ball and only look for the umpire when the play is over.
I agree with Dakota. Show the delayed dead ball signal and then drop it. Running around the infield with your arm out looks kind of funny any way.
I also agree with another post in this thread that you can not decide on how far to protect until the play is over. Say a runner is bumped or slightly obstructed rounding first base on a hit to the out field and then is tagged out on a bang bang play at third. If the umpire decides he will protect only to second (and considering nothing else wierd happened on the play), how can the runner be called out at third if the obstruction kept him from arriving safely. I know this is not the way Oklahoma City teaches but it sure makes more sense to me.

obstruction
 

I agree with Andy's comments on the award and Dakota's comments on mechanics. The arm is up long enough for the players to realize the umpire saw something, but the umpire need not run around w/ the arm up.

How to rule on an obstruction cannot be generalized and must be handled on a play-by-play basis.

For example, if a player is obstructed rounding 1B while the ball is dropped in the OF. If OF recovers and throws the ball in, I've got it in my mind I'm protecting the runner to 2B. So, the player pulls into 2B as the throw is cut-off by F4. In his eagerness to check the runner, F4 turns quickly and drops the ball. The runner (Superman in mind, D ballplayer in fact) decides to make a dash for 3B. I am not protecting that runner to 3B.

Now, same play, just this time the OF cannot get a grip on the ball and makes a very weak throw to the IF. Same runner hesitates at 2B, but sees the bobble and continues to 3B. It is a good possibility that I will protect this runner to 3B since the OF bobbled the ball and showed no sign of getting it into the IF in a timely fashion, I could not make a judgment until I saw the play develop.

It's inconsistent to say drop the arm after allowing the players or coaches to see it or hear the verbal; and also to say that no one is watching the umpire until afterward. The signal is for the DDB, not the obstruction as such. Obstruction is called when it happens and the delay of the ball being dead continues until the play ends (or runner tagged, etc.).

If you drop the signal and then return to it after the play it looks like you are waiting to see which team is favored or whether it matters at all. It might even help if your partner has time to see it. Mike's examples show very clearly why we can't predetermine how far to "protect", let alone what the players will do.

Like many other plays we talk about, it's up to the players/coaches to know what is going on and run or stop accordingly.

Here's what it comes down to: players and coaches should never stop playing based on the presumption an umpire saw or didn't see an infraction or the assumption THEY can predetermine how an umpire will judge the actions of others.

A coach or runner who assumes that they can run until caught believing the umpire will not rule them out is preposterous and a bit stupid.

As umpires, we should not place so much emphasis on ourselves. See the play, apply any special rulings to the play and make the call. If teams operate under some notion that it is up to US to protect THEM from THEIR shortcomings or misinterpretations of the rules, they are going to have a problem, but that doesn't make it the umpire's problem.

Whether you hold the arm up the entire play or not, the fact that you made the determination is enough. The signal is not only for the participants, but also your partner and spectators. Trust me, the moment a runner is obstructed, half the offensive team is going to scream "interference" and look at the umpire. If you have the arm up at that point, they will see it and you will likely hear someone say, "he's got it".

It is now up to the offense to continue NORMAL play. If the choose to try to stretch the play, that is their problem and if they know the rules as well as they believe they do, they will also know their runner is no longer protected.

Mike said what I was trying to say, only much better!