In a game last night, there was a runner on second and 1 out. The batter hit a single to left and the runner on second tried to score. The batters bat was on the ground in foul territory. As the play was made at home, the throw hit the bat and the closest runner was ruled out for obstruction(the runner trying to score)

Any feedback is welcome.

Jim

Bad call. A discarded bat is part of the field. Throw hits it, that's just too bad. I've seen it many times over the years.

That was not the correct call. The correct call was live ball, play on.

ASA POE 17 says,Think about it - is the defense allowed to throw the ball at the bat in order to get an out?

BTW, Jim, Welcome to the board! http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...smiley-069.gif

need help on a ruling
 

Thank you- I know that my response to the umpire was not the most mature however when I asked him if I had no play and I chose to aim all subsequent throws at the discarded bat in order to get the out, I was ejected. In any case, we won and I appologized later even though I disagreed with the call.

Great site
Jim

One tipoff that the ump might never have read the rule book is that he called the runner out for <i>obstruction.</i>

Some umps assume that if something unfortunate happens, there must be a rule somewhere that makes things "right."

Incidentally, if all you did was pose that question to the ump, and if you didn't yell/scream/curse/make obscene gestures/etc., you should not have been ejected.

[Edited by greymule on Aug 12th, 2003 at 02:39 PM]

I agree, wrong call. I can only assume the umpire felt the bat was discarded in a location designed to have a later effect on play. In the situation you described, can't imagine how that could be the case.

Had there been an earlier issue in the game, or recently in your area, of bats being dropped to conveniently impair the catcher, or something like that? That said, I hope any such problems are handled in a more straight-forward manner.

The bat is part of the ground. I had many coaches tell me I "have" to move a bat for many reasons (safety, etc). This is what my ASA commissioner told me at a State meeting: "Leave the damn bats alone!"

You move the bat and someone falls over it and hurts themselves, you will be on the recieving end of a lawsuit. Darn right, leave the bat and all other equipment alone!

He's right. You are not the bat boy just as you are not
the grounds keeper....[i.e. coaches always wanting a batter's
box drawn....NO NO..]

glen

"and the closest runner was ruled out for obstruction(the runner trying to score)"

How can a runner be out for obstruction? Obstruction is a DEFENSIVE infraction.

Bob

Regarding some of the latest posts in this thread, are you saying that as PU's we should never move a bat during a play? When possible and when it does not affect me getting into position to see/make calls, I have been moving it out of the way of possible baserunners coming home. So are you saying that it's better to avoid a possible lawsuit against me by not touching the bat at all, and leaving it wherever it is, even if it's right next to home plate and the runner may slide into it, trip over it, etc.? I've never thought about it that way. I've always thought about getting the bat out of the way for a possible play.

whiskers_ump quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TruBlu
The bat is part of the ground. I had many coaches tell me I "have" to move a bat for many reasons (safety, etc). This is what my ASA commissioner told me at a State meeting: "Leave the damn bats alone!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He's right. You are not the bat boy just as you are not
the grounds keeper....[i.e. coaches always wanting a batter's
box drawn....NO NO..]

glen
Skahtboi quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TruBlu
The bat is part of the ground. I had many coaches tell me I "have" to move a bat for many reasons (safety, etc). This is what my ASA commissioner told me at a State meeting: "Leave the damn bats alone!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You move the bat and someone falls over it and hurts themselves, you will be on the recieving end of a lawsuit. Darn right, leave the bat and all other equipment alone!
TruBlu The bat is part of the ground. I had many coaches tell me I "have" to move a bat for many reasons (safety, etc). This is what my ASA commissioner told me at a State meeting: "Leave the damn bats alone!"

Hey, Cecil... I think I finally got it... leave the damn bats alone! http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...smiley-018.gif

On a contrary note, however, I think we live in too much fear and trembling http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...smiley-013.gif regarding lawsuits. http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...smiley-040.gif

I may kick a bat back, but it would be more to get it out of MY way than to get it out of the play. You can sue for just about anything. That doesn't mean you will win. I can't imagine a real jury awarding damages because an umpire moved a bat (barring something really unusual, such as carelessly throwing the bat directly into a player's face).

We may as well also worry about showing favortism - after all, if we move the bat out of the way, we are ptoentially affecting the PLAY, aren't we? http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...smiley-034.gif

I agree leave the bat alone, that's what the ondeck batter should take care of. I instruct all of our umpires during clinics to leave the equipment alone and just call the game, that's what you are being paid to do.

Now to the question. In USSSA slo-pitch only the batters bat discarted in fair territory is considered part of the playing field, otherwise it is foreign and a dead ball. As is in most organizations rules the player being played on is out if in your judgement you had a chance to make a play (out), if not you send them back to base they had legally attained when the ball was declared dead.

I don't understand this answer. Are you saying the original call was correct if the defensive player had a chance to make a play?

I don't think a discarded bat in foul territory creates a blocked ball by the offense when it is hit by a throw. With a blocked ball, runners would be sent back to the last base touched.

Other team bats outside the dugout, or any other equipment left lying around, yes. But not the bat the batter hit the ball with. Definitely not in ASA. If USSSA calls the ball in play if it hits a discarded bat in fair territory and calls the ball blocked if it hits a discarded bat in foul territory, that would be a very unusual rule.

Maybe Woodchuck is thinking about a batted ball??

Dakota,

The answear is yes if you are using USSSA. It could vary with other associations.

Speaking USSSA. The bat discarded by the batter is not lose equipment, and may not cause a ball to become blocked. (This also applies to the catcher's mask/helmet.)

The only time the batter may interfere with her discarded bat is if it is discarded in such a way as to interfere with a fair batted ball, or to intentionally prevent a batted ball from becoming fair.

The USSSA rule is the same as all other codes that I am aware of.

Roger Greene

Right you are Roger!

USSSA Rule 2, Section 11. EQUIPMENT shall not be allowed to remain on the playing field, during the playing of the game, either on Fair or Foul Territory, with the exception of an official warm up bat or official warm-up device which may be kept in proximity to the on-deck circle during a team's turn at bat.
EFFECT Sec. 11. A bat dropped by the batter-runner in Foul territory, or any mask, cap, etc. dropped incidental to making a play, will be considered as foreign to the normal playing area, and Foul ball rulings will be made accordingly.

What am I missing? I don't have a copy of ASA rules.

A big welcome to Woodchuck, a great contributor to the NFHS forum ! !

We've agreed on that before, but not everyone does, so I'll stay with caution.

You are apparently attempting to extend fair/foul calls on balls contacting a discarded bat or mask to blocked ball, base awards, and inteference rules.

I don't have my books with me today, but you might want to review the definitions of blocked balls and lose equipment.

Roger Greene

2003 ASA rules, POE #17: Official equipment which may be within PLAYABLE territory with no penalty includes the batter's bat, the catcher's mask, umpire paraphernalia, any helmet which has inadvertently fallen off on an offensive or defensive player during the course of play or any equipment belonging to a person assigned to the game.

Woodchuck: If the batter drops the bat in foul territory and the ball rolls up against it, the ball is foul. It cannot deflect off the bat and become fair. For that purpose, the bat is foreign to the ground.

But a throw that hits that bat is in play. If it caroms into the dugout, that's tough luck for the defense. If it caroms straight to the catcher so that he can put the runner out, that's tough luck for the offense.

What you are missing is the distinction between a fair / foul call on a batted ball and ruling a thrown ball blocked / ruling interference on a thrown ball.

If the bat is dropped in foul territory, and the batted ball hits the bat, then you have a foul ball.

However, if a thrown ball hits that same bat in the same place, you have a bad throw, live ball, play on.

I kick the bat out of the way also.

Whiskers quote:
He's right. You are not the bat boy just as you are not
the grounds keeper....

If they are going to sue you for moving it... they are just as likely, if not more likely to sue you, because there is more opportunity for interaction, for leaving it there.

Once the ball is hit I don't take my eyes off the play and I very, very rarely bend over to pick-up a bat. I gently kick it away from the plate area, where a play is about to potentially occur. I do this first thing after a hit when I think a play may be coming to home. If I don't have opportunity (say a runner is coming in from 3rd without potential for a play, I will tell him/her as they run by to "Watch out for the bat." They generally return to pick it up after touching home.

I am the only one on the field getting paid. If anyone gets sued for safety issues, it will likely be me. I feel moving the bat out of the runner's way is an act of creating a safe area for running, sliding, tagging, etc.

I am not a batboy, but I definitely don't want anyone to get hurt during my game. I move the bat when I can.

No offense to anyone and despite some of the comments to the contrary, I higly recommend that you also create a safe zone around the plate, when you can, by kicking the bat 5-10 feet away from the foul line.

:)

I honestly don't think you are likely to be sued for leaving it or for moving it. As someone stated, it is not your responsibility. And I wouldn't give an iota of credence to the idea that you will be sued because you moved it. To each their own.

You can be sued for anything.

Winning... that's another matter! I seriously doubt such a suit would be successful.

But once you take controll of the placement of the discarded bat, you might have assumed some type of duty to place it in a safe location. If you "kick it" into the path of the ondeck batter who is moving to coach the scoring runner, and she trips on the bat you placed in her path and she breaks her ankle, then-----

If I'm representing the umpire/defendant, I beleive I would rather be able to argue that the umpire had no controll of the placement of the bat, and that players assume the risk of participation.

JMO

Roger Greene

I agree. Why my ASA Commissioner told me to leave the bats alone was to avoid lawsuits. If I take that bat and place it outside the field of play and someone in the crowd steps on it and gets hurt, I'm liable, let alone if I move it on the field and a player is injured. The moment you touch that bat intentionally you are responsible for everything that follows that it is a part of. I agree this is moronic, but, if you don't think there is an ambulance chaser that will sue, I've got some land for sale you may be interested in. And in some lawsuits, it doesn't make any difference if you win or lose. They take years and cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Sued for moving? Sued for not moving?
 

And if you trip over it, do you sue the batter?

I've got over 20 years of kicking them out of the way. I'm not sure how many bats/kicks that is, but no one hit yet. And no lawsuits.... also no runners or catchers with broken body parts due to tripping over the bat.

Being a podunk from the country, perhaps I just haven't met up with the 'wrong' ambulance chaser yet.

Knock on wood! :D

Dammit! Where's a wooden bat when you need it?

And I truly hope you never meet the wrong one. But a bad lawyer is like lightning. One introduction is enough.

We are also instructed by our UIC to leave the bats alone for the legal reasons as stated above.

In the mid 80's, we had an Umpire who was hit with a $25k judgement. After a foul ball went out of play (over the fence) he took one from his ballbag and tossed it back to the pitcher. Just at that moment her coach called to her and she looked away. Ball hit her in the mouth, knocking some teeth out. The legal argument used was "Where in the rules is it the Umpire's responsibility to return balls to the pitcher?" (Hey don't flame me, it's what happened.) Because it was not a SPECIFIC duty of the Umpire, he incurred the liability of the throw. We are now also told to NEVER return a ball to the pitcher, hand it to the catcher.

So we don't move bats and we don't throw balls. We make decisions and rulings. Sad, but true.