A friend posed this play to me and I am not sure I am correct and of course I would like some other thoughts and rulings.

Runner on First, One out. Ball hit to deep center and R1 takes off. CF makes Willie Mays catch. R1 is between 2nd and third when CF fires the ball back to first base. CF's cannon of an arm throws the ball into dead ball territory before R1 can return for the tag up.

What is the Award?

A. Third base after going back to First and re-tagging.

B. Home after going back to First and re-tagging.

Two bases from the time of the throw. Runner had second base already so they would have to go back to first, tag up and be awarded home. Dave

Question. How did the runner legally have second since, according to the original post, they were between second and third at the time of the catch?

The runner needs to complete their base running responsibilities first. Therefore, the last base legally touched at the time of the throw would be first. The runner gets third assuming they touched second while coming back to first to tag up.

I hope I'm not wrong on this.

ASA POE describes this play almost exactly and says that the runner is awarded home. The reason is the award to the runner is dictated by where they are located at the time of the throw. Hence the award to home. They still need to fulfill their baserunning responsibilites before they are awarded the bases. The only part of the POE I am not sure about is that they also say that the runner is between 1st and 2nd when the ball goes into dead ball territory.

My follow up to this post is:
If R1 is not between first and second when the ball goes out of bounds are they still awarded home?

I didn't have my rule book with me when I originally responded, but now that I have it, it does give the same situation word for word that you originally posted.

You say the reason for awarding the runner home is because the runner last touched second. OK, I guess according to the rule, that's correct. My beef is, and I'm not disagreeing with you Rick, is that the runner didn't LEGALLY have second base. The runner legally held first. After completing their base running responsiblities, why do they still get home?

"Two bases from the last base touched at the time of the throw..." according to rule.

How about a possible rewording of POE 37 to "Two base from the last base LEGALLY touched at the time of the throw..."? This eliminates the need for the exception for POE 37

Objections? Comments? Potential arguments? :D

Actually, the rule says NOTHING about last base legally touched.

ASA 8.5 RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITHOUT LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT:

G. When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary liens) of is blocked.
EFFECT: All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner. Once a base runner advances to and passes the next awarded base, the runner may no longer return to touch any missed base or any base left too soon.

There are four exceptions, but none have to do with the subject matter. The "last base touched" phrase is in the POE to make it easier for some to understand. Apparently, in this case, it is causing confusion.

Remember, in ASA, once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base. Since a base left too soon is an appeal, the umpire cannot award bases and then explain it to the teams that the reason is because s/he knows the runner left too soon.

My assumption is that the ball remains dead during the time R1 is headed back to 1st and that there is no way for the umpire or defense to get back to live ball status and jeopardize the runner.

Please be sure to recognize that "when the ball goes into dead ball territory" is not relevant.

Then we have NFHS. As I understand NFHS, the runner(s) can not return past a base after the ball is dead, so in this case R1 could only go back to 2nd, not be able to tag up and be out on appeal, even if awarded home.

As Mike said... the award in ASA is based on where the runner was at the time of the throw no matter how they got there!

If they are not there "legally" - i.e. they missed a base or left early, they must rectify that before advancing on the award. If they advance one base on the award before retouching, then they may not return to retouch. However, the defense must still appeal to get the out.

Gentlemen, thank you for making this clear to me now.

It doesn't matter if the runner illegally obtained a base, they are considered to have it. From what Mike said, it doesn't even matter what base they had, it matters where they were on the basepaths. I get it now. Once again, thanks.

One part of the POE play is now irrelevant and should be removed: the fact that the runner is between 2B and 1B when the ball goes out of play.

Before ASA changed their rule (for the 2002 season), if the runner was past 2B when the ball went into DBT, then he was not permitted to return to touch 1B (as in Fed). Therefore, for the POE they had to devise a play in which the runner was between 2B and 3B when the ball was thrown, but between 2B and 1B when it went into DBT.

Now a runner can return to touch a base left too soon even if he is beyond the "next" base, as long as he initiates his return before the award is made. That part was clarified for 2003, if the ambiguous wording ASA used can be considered clarification.

[Edited by greymule on Aug 6th, 2003 at 03:42 PM]

GreyMule - Thanks for clearing that up for me also. I was confused by the wording in the POE for ASA.

C-1: "Please be sure to recognize that "when the ball goes into dead ball territory" is not relevant."

Not relevent to what? Ball going out directly because of a throw? Agreed.

But there are several situations where awards are made from the base obtained at the time the ball went out of play."

You need to be a little more specific so you don't confuse the people that are trying to learn.

WMB

"But there are several situations where awards are made from the base obtained at the time the ball went out of play."

Name them.

Bob

The ones I thought of after WMB's comment are
- carried by a fielder
- lost by a fielder making a play
- an out after obstruction

"- carried by a fielder"

Or intentionally pushed, kicked, or thrown by a fielder. . . . .

WMB

Even in Southern California?

"Even in Southern California? "

In Southern Cal I can picture a centerfielder laying on her belly pushing a ball with her nose through a hole in the fence. However, by time the ball enters DBT the runner has probably scored - so the award is from home plate. In La La Land, two bases from home plate would put her at 2B - Right?

WMB

The discussion was pretty specific as this being on a thrown ball in an attempt to retire a runner.

Twist the thread and we will confuse those who are trying to learn.

I still am unclear about the correct call - I understand that a runner ,having left 1st early and is between 2B & 3B at the time of the throw is awarded Home. But I am unclear whether the runner can tag up back at first having already passed second. Some posts have said that tagging back to 1st is not allowed and can be appealed and other posts say that once the runner passed 2nd they cannot return to tag up.

Clarity?

Hyzepher

In ASA, the runner can return to tag up at 1B even if he remains between 2B and 3B when the ball enters DBT. (A couple of years ago, he could not return; thus the un-updated POE contains the stipulation that he was between 2B and 1B). As I remember, in Fed he CANNOT return to 1B if he is on or beyond 2B when the ball enters DBT, even if he has initiated a return.

Here is the part that caused a lot of discussion in ASA, and this is my interpretation: the umpire is supposed to watch the runner after the ball enters DBT. If he starts to retreat to tag up, the ump waits until he tags up and then awards him home. If he proceeds toward 3B, the ump makes the award of home, but as soon as the runner touches 3B, he cannot legally return to tag up.

In ASA, where the runner is at the time <b>the throw that entered DBT was made</b> [my correction] governs the award of bases, no matter whether he has initiated a return. But it is what the runner does after the award is made, not after the time the ball entered DBT, that is key for whether he can return to correct a baserunning error.

Maybe this will help:

Runner leaves 1B too soon on a long fly. He is running toward 3B when the throw sails over F5 and enters DBT. Immediately afterward, the runner slides into 3B. In OBR, that runner would be considered to have proceeded to the next base after the ball became dead, and he would be prohibited from returning legally to tag up at 1B. But in ASA, the time of the award is key. If he proceeds toward home, the umpire makes the award of home. As soon as he touches home (the next base <i>after the award,</i> he cannot return to correct his baserunning error.

At least I think that's right!

[Edited by greymule on Aug 14th, 2003 at 02:31 PM]

While I agree with most of what Greymule says, the award is based on the position of the runner at the time of the throw...not when the ball goes dead.

Correct, mdntranger. Thanks. The following sentence should be revised:

"In ASA, where the runner is at the time the ball enters DBT governs the award of bases, no matter whether he has initiated a return."

It should read, ". . . where the runner is at the time the throw that entered DBT was made governs the award of bases . . ."

Where the runner happens to be at the time the ball enters DBT is relevant only to determining what he subsequently does to correct a baserunning error.

I will edit that post and note the correction.

throw out of play
 

By saying that the runner cannot "legally return to tag up," does this mean that the umpire should refuse to let the runner return (e.g. "runner, you can't go back to tag up") or should still let the runner return, and then call the runner out if properly appealed by the defense? My sense is the latter, as the former is a giveaway to the defense to appeal, though I had an instructor at a clinic tell me I should tell the runner she can't return.

Re: throw out of play
 

The umpire should not stop them from returning to retouch any missed base or base left too soon. However, if an appeal is made, the umpire should ignore the runner's efforts and properly rule on the appeal as if the runner did not retouch the bag.