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MD Longhorn Mon Aug 19, 2013 03:58pm
Can't find a case play
 
Runner on 2nd. As the pitcher starts her delivery, the batter abruptly steps out of the batter's box (without calling time). The pitcher stops her motion and fails to pitch.

I know the ruling (No pitch and warn the batter)...

But I know this has been a case play somewhat recently and I can't find it. Any help?

youngump Mon Aug 19, 2013 04:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 902881)
Runner on 2nd. As the pitcher starts her delivery, the batter abruptly steps out of the batter's box (without calling time). The pitcher stops her motion and fails to pitch.

I know the ruling (No pitch and warn the batter)...

But I know this has been a case play somewhat recently and I can't find it. Any help?
I'm curious why you mentioned the runner on 2nd. It doesn't seem to do much to the play. Perhaps you meant to have her step off just before the pitcher finally stopped. In which case it is somewhat more interesting.

nopachunts Mon Aug 19, 2013 04:29pm
Closest case play I can find is 3-6-9. Penalty is to warn first time and restrict for second time. Coaches may be warned, restricted, or ej'ed depending on severity of the action.

IRISHMAFIA Mon Aug 19, 2013 08:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 902881)
Runner on 2nd. As the pitcher starts her delivery, the batter abruptly steps out of the batter's box (without calling time). The pitcher stops her motion and fails to pitch.

I know the ruling (No pitch and warn the batter)...

But I know this has been a case play somewhat recently and I can't find it. Any help?
Speaking ASA

It is rule 6FP.10.E However, I wouldn't be too quick to blame the batter for a pitcher failing to continue the delivery.

There is no rule forbidding a batter to stay in the batter's box and this rule states the act must be obvious for the purpose of creating an IP.

Well, how can you warn a batter who just doesn't want to be near the plate/in the box when the pitch is approaching and is not violating any rules by stepping out?

youngump Mon Aug 19, 2013 09:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 902897)
Speaking ASA

It is rule 6FP.10.E However, I wouldn't be too quick to blame the batter for a pitcher failing to continue the delivery.

There is no rule forbidding a batter to stay in the batter's box and this rule states the act must be obvious for the purpose of creating an IP.

Well, how can you warn a batter who just doesn't want to be near the plate/in the box when the pitch is approaching and is not violating any rules by stepping out?
NFHS is very clear on this. 7-3-1. I think that not having thought about it being different I very likely would have missed this one in an ASA game(*). So thank you for the response and thank you to the other Mike for starting the thread.
(*) Of course that pre-supposes that it happened, have you ever actually seen a batter step out abruptly as the pitcher is throwing?

IRISHMAFIA Mon Aug 19, 2013 09:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 902899)
NFHS is very clear on this. 7-3-1. I think that not having thought about it being different I very likely would have missed this one in an ASA game(*). So thank you for the response and thank you to the other Mike for starting the thread.
(*) Of course that pre-supposes that it happened, have you ever actually seen a batter step out abruptly as the pitcher is throwing?
With NFHS rule, why would a pitcher ever complete the delivery and risk a ball call? Of course, it could be a strike, but what are the odds if the action actually disturbed the pitcher?

Just weak coaching. The pitcher should always, ALWAYS follow through with the pitch. I've been hearing that since 1958 when I first started playing baseball. And I'll bet everyone on here has been told or heard the same thing.

So, why is there a rule covering for the pitcher? :D

MD Longhorn Tue Aug 20, 2013 08:25am
Mike, are you saying that if a pitcher started her delivery, and the batter stepped out ... then the pitcher, thinking time was called, failed to deliver the pitch --- you would call an illegal pitch?

IRISHMAFIA Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 902912)
Mike, are you saying that if a pitcher started her delivery, and the batter stepped out ... then the pitcher, thinking time was called, failed to deliver the pitch --- you would call an illegal pitch?
Not always by the rules, but my question is, why not? IMO, that is a sign of poor coaching. A pitcher, regardless of which game is being played should always finish a delivery once started. Heard it all my sporting life, is there any reason that should change?

And how do you determine it was "meant" to cause an IP? (ASA) If the pitcher starts his/her delivery and looks up and sees the batter just standing there an leaning on the bat, you going to call an IP if the pitcher doesn't deliver the ball? What if the batter is just standing there, bat on shoulder looking away from the pitcher? Gonna call that an IP if the pitcher doesn't throw the ball? Are you going to warn the batter every time a pitcher reacts to their presence or lack of preparedness? There is no rule requiring the batter to take a certain posture in the BB or to stay there once the pitcher starts the delivery.

Yes, we all know that this is something that you will recognize when you see it, but that is because many players can play better than act.

And what is it with the "hold up the hand" crap? Who cares? Since when it that anything more than a player holding up their hand? Even if you accept that as a request for time, it is to the umpire, not the pitcher, so why is it an issue even raised in the rule? That is as ambiguous as a "play" on an LBR anything to which the runner reacts.

No, I'm not saying I would or would not always call an IP, but I am certainly going to use some common sense when applying any portion of the rule IF I think it is necessary to apply it at all.

shagpal Tue Aug 20, 2013 01:30pm
Referee Magazine, September 2003, p53

CecilOne Tue Aug 20, 2013 01:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shagpal (Post 902944)
Referee Magazine, September 2003, p53
Does it cite a rule book or sanctioned interp? That's what we go by.

shagpal Tue Aug 20, 2013 01:41pm
The article is written for baseball.

No rule would apply, its informational for softball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 902945)
Does it cite a rule book or sanctioned interp? That's what we go by.

youngump Tue Aug 20, 2013 01:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 902900)
With NFHS rule, why would a pitcher ever complete the delivery and risk a ball call? Of course, it could be a strike, but what are the odds if the action actually disturbed the pitcher?

Just weak coaching. The pitcher should always, ALWAYS follow through with the pitch. I've been hearing that since 1958 when I first started playing baseball. And I'll bet everyone on here has been told or heard the same thing.

So, why is there a rule covering for the pitcher? :D
The pitch is to be called a strike if delivered. Rule reads:

2. If the pitcher stops or hesitates in her delivery as a result of the batter
stepping out of the box or holding up her hand to request time, it shall not
be an illegal pitch. However, if the batter steps out of the box or holds up
her hand to request time and the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall
be called a strike and the ball remains live. If a pitch is not delivered, a
rule has been violated by both the batter and the pitcher. The umpire shall
call time, declare "no-pitch" and begin play anew. If the umpire judges the
batter's action to be a deliberate attempt to create an illegal pitch, the
umpire will penalize according to 3-6-9.

youngump Tue Aug 20, 2013 01:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 902931)
No, I'm not saying I would or would not always call an IP, but I am certainly going to use some common sense when applying any portion of the rule IF I think it is necessary to apply it at all.
But you are saying that by rule we either have to call an illegal pitch or rule an intentional attempt to draw an illegal pitch? Yes?
Maybe this is bad then but my sense is that when the batter requested time and I saw the pitcher stopping that I started to call time just before she violated. After all they had both stopped?
Now that you've opened my eyes to the rule I'm going to have to seek some local direction on this one.

MD Longhorn Tue Aug 20, 2013 02:14pm
YU has posted the NFHS rule... a clear case where their rule makes a lot more sense than the ASA rule, which seems to indicate there's no grey area between an illegal pitch and ruling the batter did it intentionally (with warning and ejection threats).

In NFHS (and every baseball ruleset), if the batter steps out and the pitcher stops, it's a no pitch. I believe that is the same in NCAA although my book was borrowed this weekend and I have not gotten it back.

shagpal Tue Aug 20, 2013 02:49pm
I found the 2013 NCAA rule, 10.10.6, effect is a NO PITCH call and a warning.
Hope that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 902945)
Does it cite a rule book or sanctioned interp? That's what we go by.

shagpal Tue Aug 20, 2013 03:10pm
Download the NCAA rulebook for free from SUP website. It is in PDF form so you can search it too. Link is on left side of the page.

http://sup.arbitersports.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 902951)
YU has posted the NFHS rule... a clear case where their rule makes a lot more sense than the ASA rule, which seems to indicate there's no grey area between an illegal pitch and ruling the batter did it intentionally (with warning and ejection threats).

In NFHS (and every baseball ruleset), if the batter steps out and the pitcher stops, it's a no pitch. I believe that is the same in NCAA although my book was borrowed this weekend and I have not gotten it back.

CecilOne Wed Aug 21, 2013 05:29am
I never post other sports here, and usually ignore any that appear, but just think this is too ironic in timing.

"PHILADELPHIA -- Phillies left-hander Jake Diekman got called for an unusual balk in the eighth inning of Monday's 5-4 win over the Rockies at Citizens Bank Park.

Diekman was working out of the stretch with runners on first and second when Nolan Arenado wanted to call time, and made a movement out of the batter's box, although he never completely left the box and time had never been called. Diekman began his delivery to the plate, but upon seeing Arenado move out of the box he believed time had been called and stopped his delivery. Home-plate umpire Jim Joyce called a balk.

Phillies interim manager Ryne Sandberg and Joyce had three conversations about the call during the game. Sandberg's contention was that a hitter cannot induce a balk. Rule 6.02(b) states: "If after the pitcher starts his windup or comes to a "set position" with a runner on, he does not go through with his pitch because the batter has stepped out of the box, it shall not be called a balk."

Joyce spoke about the call following the game with Randy Marsh, who is Major League Baseball's director of umpires. Marsh is in town this week.

"I implemented the balk wrong," Joyce said before Tuesday's game. "The rule actually states if the batter leaves the batter's box and causes the pitcher to hesitate or stop, a balk shall not be called. I got probably a little more technical on that. He didn't leave the box, but the spirit of the rule is if you make the pitcher stop by some sort of action by the batter, a balk shall not be called. I probably was a little overzealous in throwing out that balk."

Joyce said he spoke with Sandberg and Rockies manager Walt Weiss about it before Tuesday's game.

"You could have the hitter step out, and if the pitcher delivers a weaker pitch they could step back in and whack it, if they're just trying to deliver a pitch," Sandberg said. "So, for me, it's a total disadvantage for the pitcher there in all regards to the play. The rule states that, and I think that's why the rule is what it is."

In Tuesday's 5-3 loss to the Rockies, two more balks were called, but both were against Colorado reliever Rex Brothers, who didn't come to a complete stop in his delivery from the stretch in the same at-bat in the eighth inning.
"

Sandberg seeks clarification on balk call | phillies.com: News

IRISHMAFIA Wed Aug 21, 2013 07:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 902951)
YU has posted the NFHS rule... a clear case where their rule makes a lot more sense than the ASA rule, which seems to indicate there's no grey area between an illegal pitch and ruling the batter did it intentionally (with warning and ejection threats).
I don't think it makes more sense for reasons I've already posted, but it is definitely clearer and YU did point out the "strike" ruling which I overlooked.

BTW, at what point do you determine the batter left the box for this rule to be in effect?

Quote:
In NFHS (and every baseball ruleset), if the batter steps out and the pitcher stops, it's a no pitch. I believe that is the same in NCAA although my book was borrowed this weekend and I have not gotten it back.
And my question is still, why? Pitcher starts, pitcher shouldn't stop. Why are the rules protecting poor mechanics and execution? Maybe a pitcher is not having a good day or is wild? You are going to penalize the batter for bailing out early?

And while we are at it, isn't the umpire directed to not grant time after the pitcher starts his/her delivery? Well, if the umpire is to not grant a suspension of play, why is it even a consideration that someone is fooled or confused?

We constantly deal with DMC, DMR, DMF, so why is there no DMP in this situation?

IRISHMAFIA Wed Aug 21, 2013 07:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 903001)
I never post other sports here, and usually ignore any that appear, but just think this is too ironic in timing.

"PHILADELPHIA -- Phillies left-hander Jake Diekman got called for an unusual balk in the eighth inning of Monday's 5-4 win over the Rockies at Citizens Bank Park.

Diekman was working out of the stretch with runners on first and second when Nolan Arenado wanted to call time, and made a movement out of the batter's box, although he never completely left the box and time had never been called. Diekman began his delivery to the plate, but upon seeing Arenado move out of the box he believed time had been called and stopped his delivery. Home-plate umpire Jim Joyce called a balk.

Phillies interim manager Ryne Sandberg and Joyce had three conversations about the call during the game. Sandberg's contention was that a hitter cannot induce a balk. Rule 6.02(b) states: "If after the pitcher starts his windup or comes to a "set position" with a runner on, he does not go through with his pitch because the batter has stepped out of the box, it shall not be called a balk."

Joyce spoke about the call following the game with Randy Marsh, who is Major League Baseball's director of umpires. Marsh is in town this week.

"I implemented the balk wrong," Joyce said before Tuesday's game. "The rule actually states if the batter leaves the batter's box and causes the pitcher to hesitate or stop, a balk shall not be called. I got probably a little more technical on that. He didn't leave the box, but the spirit of the rule is if you make the pitcher stop by some sort of action by the batter, a balk shall not be called. I probably was a little overzealous in throwing out that balk."

Joyce said he spoke with Sandberg and Rockies manager Walt Weiss about it before Tuesday's game.

"You could have the hitter step out, and if the pitcher delivers a weaker pitch they could step back in and whack it, if they're just trying to deliver a pitch," Sandberg said. "So, for me, it's a total disadvantage for the pitcher there in all regards to the play. The rule states that, and I think that's why the rule is what it is."

In Tuesday's 5-3 loss to the Rockies, two more balks were called, but both were against Colorado reliever Rex Brothers, who didn't come to a complete stop in his delivery from the stretch in the same at-bat in the eighth inning.
"

Sandberg seeks clarification on balk call | phillies.com: News
Again, the batter is not required to stay in the box, even in MLB. Many batters step one foot out and then return to hit a pitch, it is not a penalty. And in softball, if the batter does leave the box, they cannot re-enter an "whack it".

As it said, the pitcher ASSUMED time had been called. How does ASSUMING anything work out in some cases on the field?

I'm not arguing the rules, I arguing the rule shouldn't be there to start.

AtlUmpSteve Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 903005)
And in softball, if the batter does leave the box, they cannot re-enter an "whack it".
Actually, only ASA defines stepping out and then back in as an illegally batted ball. Not so in NFHS or NCAA.

Manny A Wed Aug 21, 2013 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 903005)
As it said, the pitcher ASSUMED time had been called. How does ASSUMING anything work out in some cases on the field.
We assume that calls we make that might've put a player in jeopardy may be corrected. What if the player just had a brain cramp and never really heard our call? We are not responsible for trying to figure that out; we just give the player the benefit of the doubt here, and protect him/her.

To me, the same is true with this case play discussion. We give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt that he/she was affected by the batter's action. After all, why else would the pitcher stop his/her motion? Because he/she wanted to commit an IP?

The reason baseball pitchers are coached into continuing with their pitch delivery is to prevent injury for suddenly stopping their motion. It's not to prevent the possibility of an umpire calling a balk.

I guess I'm just surprised by your position on this. Virtually every other rule set allows for this to be a "no pitch" situation. The same should be the case in ASA, IMO.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Aug 21, 2013 06:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 903026)
Actually, only ASA defines stepping out and then back in as an illegally batted ball. Not so in NFHS or NCAA.
Probably because their primary game is FP where this isn't likely to happen. If I remember correctly, this rule was enacted to keep those who like running the box from leaving the back side and reentering to hit the ball.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Aug 21, 2013 08:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 903074)
We assume that calls we make that might've put a player in jeopardy may be corrected. What if the player just had a brain cramp and never really heard our call? We are not responsible for trying to figure that out; we just give the player the benefit of the doubt here, and protect him/her.
Ahhh...no, we don't. If the player doesn't hear a call, that is the player's problem, not the umpire's.

Quote:
To me, the same is true with this case play discussion. We give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt that he/she was affected by the batter's action. After all, why else would the pitcher stop his/her motion? Because he/she wanted to commit an IP?
If an OF dives and comes up like a catch and a runner doesn't advance and is forced out even though the umpire is standing there giving a safe signal, do you protect that runner because her and the coach didn't realize the ball wasn't caught?

If R1 is on 2B and after a non-decisive pitch is caught, he starts walking toward 3B coach screaming at him while the catcher is standing there, with the ball trying to figure out what is going on. R2 then stops on 3B and starts laughing. Do you put him back because the catcher was confused?

I'm not saying it should never be called, but I like ASA's requirement that the umpire must believe the intent was to cause an issue with the pitcher. I do not believe it should be automatic just because the pitch may be confused.

Quote:
The reason baseball pitchers are coached into continuing with their pitch delivery is to prevent injury for suddenly stopping their motion. It's not to prevent the possibility of an umpire calling a balk.
It isn't just baseball and it wasn't only to prevent injury. It is also because you never know if it was the umpire who said time, just like in softball, so you follow through with the play, just like a runner is told to not stop playing until an umpire or coach tells them to stop.

Quote:
I guess I'm just surprised by your position on this. Virtually every other rule set allows for this to be a "no pitch" situation. The same should be the case in ASA, IMO.
My position is that it is a competitive game and some of the rules remove some of the character of a competitive game by making excuses and compensating for poor play and coaching.


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