Tcow #3

[CecilOne]

Tough mechanics, not a rule Q. 2 umps.

Runners on 2nd & 3rd, fly to left, R1 tags and starts home. Throw is immediate to F2, R1 retreats, F2 chasing.
PU hustling alongside F2, watching for tag, yells "I have tag", BU nearby.

Just before reaching 3rd, R1 drifts into fair, F2 swivels body toward fair blocking PU view; both still moving.
PU yells "BU’s name, yours".
Then R1 dives into 3rd as F2 attempts/applies tag; both now on ground. PU still blocked.

BU close to play, 90 degree to baseline, calls R1 safe as R1 beat tag to base.

Italic paragraph took about 2 seconds, maybe less.
Comments ?

[Insane Blue]

When moving on a play only tell your partner what you are doing ( I have 3rd ) If you called it which was done here make the call and in this case expect to have a coach come out. You can always go to your partner afterwards.

[shagpal]

Don't guess an out. The call is safe when blocked out.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Tough mechanics, not a rule Q. 2 umps.

Runners on 2nd & 3rd, fly to left, R1 tags and starts home. Throw is immediate to F2, R1 retreats, F2 chasing.
PU hustling alongside F2, watching for tag, yells "I have tag", BU nearby.

Just before reaching 3rd, R1 drifts into fair, F2 swivels body toward fair blocking PU view; both still moving.
PU yells "BU’s name, yours".
Then R1 dives into 3rd as F2 attempts/applies tag; both now on ground. PU still blocked.

BU close to play, 90 degree to baseline, calls R1 safe as R1 beat tag to base.

Italic paragraph took about 2 seconds, maybe less.
Comments ?

[Andy]

I agree with both of the previous comments.

PU called that he had the play, releasing BU to cover the other runner. PU should have taken the call, SAFE if blocked, then gone for help if asked and felt it warranted.

As a general practice, I don't like the idea of bracketing a rundown with multiple runners on base. If both umpires commit to one runner, it leaves others uncovered and too much left to chance.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Tough mechanics, not a rule Q. 2 umps.

Runners on 2nd & 3rd, fly to left, R1 tags and starts home. Throw is immediate to F2, R1 retreats, F2 chasing.
PU hustling alongside F2, watching for tag, yells "I have tag", BU nearby.

Just before reaching 3rd, R1 drifts into fair, F2 swivels body toward fair blocking PU view; both still moving.
PU yells "BU’s name, yours".
Then R1 dives into 3rd as F2 attempts/applies tag; both now on ground. PU still blocked.

BU close to play, 90 degree to baseline, calls R1 safe as R1 beat tag to base.

Italic paragraph took about 2 seconds, maybe less.
Comments ?

IMO, this is a situation where the BU needs to pick up responsibility for the call.

Though it wasn't completed, there was a play at the plate and that must be the PU's priority until it isn't.

There is no way the PU is going to outrun the play back to 3B to get into a good position for a call. If the players cooperate and make it easy, good for the PU. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case as we have it here

[CecilOne]

The PU saying "yours" was because the BU was right at the play and had a better, the only full, angle.

But I agree, calling safe then getting help afterward is the better course.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Don't guess an out.

Nobody did. But I agree, calling safe then getting help afterward is the better course.

[shagpal]

If an umpire has no call because he can't see the play for any reason, being blocked, poor mechanics, sun in eyes, lost the ball, fell on his ass, ran into a player, whatever, just because his partner is in the right position to see a play does necessarily guarantee the partner has a call for that play. Putting the call on a partner can have disastrous consequences to assume that partner can make that call.

If that partner also has no call and calls safe, its two blind mice, except the bitching got dumped on that partner.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The PU saying "yours" was because the BU was right at the play and had a better, the only full, angle.

But I agree, calling safe then getting help afterward is the better course.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Runners on 2nd & 3rd, fly to left, R1 tags and starts home. Throw is immediate to F2, R1 retreats, F2 chasing.
PU hustling alongside F2, watching for tag, yells "I have tag", BU nearby.

Why would the PU feel he needs to chase F2 all the way back to third to watch for the tag? If this were a return throw from F2 to F5 on the retreating R1, wouldn't that be the BU's responsibility?

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were the BU here, as soon as I saw R1 start to head back to third base when the throw came in, I would tell my PU partner, "I'VE GOT THIRD!" I've already button-hooked into the infield between second and third base to watch R2's tag-up, so I already have a good angle to watch the play going back to third base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Why would the PU feel he needs to chase F2 all the way back to third to watch for the tag? If this were a return throw from F2 to F5 on the retreating R1, wouldn't that be the BU's responsibility?

No throw, just F2 chasing R1, looked like tag would be part way back.

Originally Posted by Manny A

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were the BU here, as soon as I saw R1 start to head back to third base when the throw came in, I would tell my PU partner, "I'VE GOT THIRD!" I've already button-hooked into the infield between second and third base to watch R2's tag-up, so I already have a good angle to watch the play going back to third base.

Good point, probably a good method.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Why would the PU feel he needs to chase F2 all the way back to third to watch for the tag? If this were a return throw from F2 to F5 on the retreating R1, wouldn't that be the BU's responsibility?

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were the BU here, as soon as I saw R1 start to head back to third base when the throw came in, I would tell my PU partner, "I'VE GOT THIRD!" I've already button-hooked into the infield between second and third base to watch R2's tag-up, so I already have a good angle to watch the play going back to third base.

Lead runner at third is the PU responsibility, strictly speaking. If the BU takes the runner coming back to third, that puts two umpires on one runner and no umpires covering the other runner(s).

There is nothing wrong with the BU having eyes on the play while covering the other runners, and able to provide help if asked, but the BU primary responsibility is the trail runners.

[shagpal]

I usually try pregame this, that throw backs to 3rd is BU unless PU is right there. I'll read my partner before positioning and calling, whether PU or BU, either way. Calling for the call should depend on where your partner is. If your PU is close in distance, even tho your angle is better, it will not sell well for either of you if you take the call.

Originally Posted by Manny A

Why would the PU feel he needs to chase F2 all the way back to third to watch for the tag? If this were a return throw from F2 to F5 on the retreating R1, wouldn't that be the BU's responsibility?

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were the BU here, as soon as I saw R1 start to head back to third base when the throw came in, I would tell my PU partner, "I'VE GOT THIRD!" I've already button-hooked into the infield between second and third base to watch R2's tag-up, so I already have a good angle to watch the play going back to third base.

[EsqUmp]

Out of curiosity, since PU should be in foul ground, how did he manage to get blocked by the runner going into fair ground? If anything, it seems like this should have opened up the view of the play, not closed it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Out of curiosity, since PU should be in foul ground, how did he manage to get blocked by the runner going into fair ground? If anything, it seems like this should have opened up the view of the play, not closed it.

R1 drifts into fair, F2 swivels body toward fair blocking PU view

I guess I am not as good at describing for visualization, but please accept the fact.