Here in Phoenix, we are hosting the 18a Western National this weekend. During our umpires meeting earlier this week, our metro UIC proposed this situation:

Team A using DP/DEFO with the DEFO being the pitcher. DP bats and reaches first base safely. Coach A requests that the DEFO replace the DP on first base. Legal substitution, no problem. Coach A then states that he wants to use a courtesy runner for his pitcher who is now on first base. Do you allow this?

Evidently, an official interpretation has been issued on this situation by Merle Butler and Henry Pollard on the ASA NUS.

I'd like to hear what you all think about this.

Mike - please don't comment if you have received the official interpretation. Thanks.

Andy,

I think we had this discussion a little earlier this year, and the consensus was that a courtesy runner would be allowed in this situation.

SamC

runner
 

I think the answer should be that a courtsey runner is not allowed in this situation, as it's defeating the purpose of the courtsey runner rule.

Both responses seem correct. Technically, the CR is probably allowed (i.e., not prohibited), but it certainly violates the spirit of the rule and I would hope the interpretation is no.

8.9 C
 

Dont know if it would hold up on protest BUT 8.9 C states only those player listed on the line up as catcher or pitcher can be courtesy run for. So if the pitcher in the last inning was playing under DEFO in the line-up she would not be eligible for a courtesy runner


JMO

Don

OK Mike, here is another candidate for ASA rules clarification!

Actually, I have something in print. Let me know when I'm allowed to chime in.

CHIME CHIME CHIME!!

I don't know that I have seen the same docu that Mike has, but from a Fed standpoint - remember that Pa used it this past year & everyone will beginning with 2004 - this would not be legal. The CR is for the person who last played F1/F2, with the provision that in the top of the first inning, the "pitcher/catcher" of record would be the person who's name was listed on the lineup.

Steve M

Andy's post,
Andy's request,
Andy's decision.

May I?

I'm looking forward to the "chime, as long as you agree with me! :)
I say not allowed, to be consistent with not allowing a CR for a pitcher re-entering after a pinch hitter and because it violates the spirit of the rule. OTOH, if this happened on the field, I would not be able to think of a prohibition in the book and probably would have allowed it.
Most CR use is just to get in a pinch runner for a slow pitcher or catcher, so maybe this doen't violatethe spirit any more than usual.
Probably need clarification in next year's book.

[Edited by CecilOne on Aug 3rd, 2003 at 11:05 AM]

TAP: "as it's defeating the purpose of the courtsey runner rule."

C1: " because it violates the spirit of the rule. Most CR use is just to get in a pinch runner for a slow pitcher or catcher,"

The CR is a speed up rule! It is available only for the catcher and pitcher - to get them off the bases and ready for the next inning. Most H.S. coaches will at least get their catcher off the bases, especially when there are two out.

Thus I can not see where allowing a CR in this situation would be a violation of the intent or spirit of the rule; it actually supports the CR rule.

After the first inning, the pitcher is identified as the last player to play that position defensively. So if slow Nellie gets on base, you can not say she is going in to pitch in the bottom of the inning and send a CR in for her. But is this case, the pitcher has been established, and is now legally on base - so if it was my call - I would say legal.

So - when does Mike "chime" in?

WMB

I know it's intended as a speedup and for protection or rest of the P or C. I didn't say it was intended as a pinch runner rule, just that most use (or at least use that I see) is getting in a pinch runner without a sub. This is especially since the rule was change to allow CR with less than 2 outs.

Also, if the pitcher or catcher is the DEFO, that is a batting order position and there is still a field position on the lineup that says "P", "C", "1" or "2".

The official interpretaion is that a courtesy runner is not allowed in this situation.

The rationale is that the spirit and intent of the courtesy runner rule is for the pitcher and/or catcher to be able to rest after they have batted and reached base. In the scenario presented the pitcher did not bat and is not entitled to a courtesy runner.

It was felt, that in this situation, a coach is only trying to get a faster runner in the game without using up a substitution.

When the question was posed to me, my intial response was to allow it. I did not like that answer, but could not think of any ruling to disallow the courtesy runner in this situation.

Mike - Is this the same interp you have? I'm also interested to hear your opinion.

I don't believe this needs an "official" interpretation as it is clearly stated (at least in my mind) in the rule book.

Rule 10.E states that the courtesy runner is not permitted to run as a courtesy runner for the DP if the DP is batting for the pitcher or catcher.

Rule 10.B notes who is considered the pitcher and catcher in the bottom half of the first inning. It goes on to state:
"Thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense. If a substitute enters in the following half inning and gets on base (DP in this case) should the pitcher or catcher (DEFO) reenter, no courtesy runner can be utulized for the pitcher or catcher that half inning".

The 2003 ASA Clinic guide basically says the same thing in simpler terms.

I'll accept the no CR ruling (reluctantly) but this - - - "The rationale is that the spirit and intent of the courtesy runner rule is for the pitcher and/or catcher to be able to rest after they have batted and reached base." - - - is B.S.!

16 yo girls do not need to rest! Pitchers and catchers are usually the best athletes on the team and most coaches do not want to take them off the base. For that reason I put a lot of emphasis in pre-games to get coaches to use the CR - especially for the catcher.

I don't know how long the CR rule has been in ASA JO, but it has been in NFHS for quite a few years - and it is definately a speed-up rule. It used to be a State option under suggested speed-up rules.

WMB

I'm with you Mich
 

This goes slightly contrary to my understanding. I felt the rule was so the catcher could get his gear on and thereby minimize the delay between half innings. It doesn't speed up the pitcher but it might offer some protection so the pitcher doesn't collide at a base, or slide and jam their fingers, etc.

Rest??? I hesitate at that... although these two players do carry the greatest share of the activity.

The rules as quoted by Mike do seem to spell it out rather well.

Actually, HS baseball began using this rule back in the '70s, but the reasoning for it wasn't necessarily rest. I believe it was instituted for the catcher first and then for the pitcher a little while later.

The explanation I was given back then was to save their legs, particularly the knees and ankles. Now, I wasn't umpiring at that level at the time, but this is what I was told by the coaching staff.

Yeah, I know it's baseball and I hate baseball, but that is the first place I've seen a CR used and just thought I would relate what I was told.

It may have been around as an option for baseball that long; any rule would be welcome to speed up that game. When I coached HS Softball I didn't have a team that really beat up on the clock, but still we would finish and the girls would head for the baseball diamond to see the rest of the BB game. And often would see 2 or 3 innings. (Away games, because both teams rode the same bus.)

Whatever, it was still an option for NFHS BB and SB as recently as 2000 (and listed under the catagory of "Speed Up Rules" in the baseball book!

WMB

Why reluctantly, WMB? I agree with your position that the courtesy runner rule is intended to speed up the game (catchers). It is also intended to allow pitcher to be a bit more protected (IMO) - otherwise, what is the rationale for allowing CRs for pitchers?

If the intent is to speed up the game, how is that intent satisfied by putting in the pitcher again as a re-entry and then putting in a CR?

If the intent is to protect the pitcher, how is that intent satisifed, either? (Just keep the pitcher on the bench and re-enter her when the team goes on defense.)

So, why "reluctantly?"

the official NFHS ruling
 

Here is the official NFHS interpretation:

"SITUATION 12: The DH, who is batting for the pitcher, reaches first base. The offensive coach requests time to bring the pitcher in to pinch-run for the DH, thus eliminating the use of the DH for the remainder of the game. The coach then wants to insert a courtesy runner for the pitcher. RULING: A courtesy runner is not permitted since the DH was batting for the pitcher. (8-9-5)"

Yes, 8.10.E is clear in what it says, but remember, the pitcher was on base, not the DP; which is why it needed an interpretation and why NFHS issued one. Also, that might be why it is mentioned in the ASA clinic guide, which we never see, so the clinicians could clarify it. The main point of 8.10.E is that the pitcher or catcher can not have both a "designated" pinch-hitter and a "courtesy" pinch-runner, without ever appearing at the plate.
Glad you knew the right answer, anyway (big surprise :D). I wonder if there will be an exception next year for injured DP's, like there is for injured CR's.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CecilOne

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA I don't believe this needs an "official" interpretation as it is clearly stated (at least in my mind) in the rule book. Rule 10.E states that the courtesy runner is not permitted to run as a courtesy runner for the DP if the DP is batting for the pitcher or catcher. ... snip ... The 2003 ASA Clinic guide basically says the same thing in simpler terms. Yes, 8.10.E is clear in what it says, but remember, the pitcher was on base, not the DP; which is why it needed an interpretation and why NFHS issued one.

Which is why I also quoted 8.10.B which directly addresses the pitcher returning to run for the individual who safely reached base.

Quote:

Also, that might be why it is mentioned in the ASA clinic guide, which we never see,

Anyone may purchase this via softball.org. It is not a classified document http://www.mansun-nl.com/smilies/deal.gif

Quote:

so the clinicians could clarify it. The main point of 8.10.E is that the pitcher or catcher can not have both a "designated" pinch-hitter and a "courtesy" pinch-runner, without ever appearing at the plate. Glad you knew the right answer, anyway (big surprise :D). I wonder if there will be an exception next year for injured DP's, like there is for injured CR's.

Thank you

A) That rule says substitute (not individual), and being literal, the DP is not a substitute.
B) It's hard to disagree with you without taking things out of context

BTW, if you get ASA to make changes, moving the CR rule out of rule 8 to the "players & subs" rule would help.

From NFHS:

In another editorial change, Rule 8-9-2 now states that the pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.