ASA Should Be Ashamed
 

ASA is the host of the WCOS. Since the onset, they have been emphasizing that this is INTERNATIONAL softball played under ISF rules.

Yet, there are umpires wearing ASA uniforms and equipment. If they cannot afford to properly equip the game officials, they shouldn't be running the tournament.

And I understand these are not all ASA-trained umpires, but some of the mechanics I've seen tonight are questionable.

JMHO

Actually Mike, this 'issue' occurred two years ago as well. Speaking with umpires who called the tournament, the problem is not ASA, but the ISF does not have enough inventory of 'logoed' gear for the crews.

In Canada last year, all the crews received 'proper' gear for both on and off the field, but for some reason, ISF does not do this for the World Cup games.

I would rather see them wear ASA uniforms, than 'blanks' :D

That is a load of shit, Phil. They told us the same thing when I worked in Plant City in 2002.

GMAFB, the shirts are sponsored by Mizuno. The shirt the 3B umpire was wearing tonight is the same style they were wearing 10 years ago.

It isn't like they have to provide hundreds of shirts, just enough for the crew they know they are going to have months in advance. This should be a no brainer for ASA, then again, we are talking about ASA putting out a few bucks for umpires. Oh yeah, never mind.

but who is 'they'? who is actually driving this bus?

The WCOS is purely ASA. Then again, you would think ISF would want to have their brand promoted on TV especially with the IOC vote approaching.

Is your concern with marketing and branding? The connection to the ASA seems to be a liability.

To me, if the umpires call good games, have uniforms alike, fit, are clean and neat, doesn't matter if its back to elbeco and balloon.

If you want appeal on TV, model it like the NCAA does.

Wcos/isf....
 

Two questions, as I know very little about the ins/outs of ISF umpiring...

1) I watched the US/Canada game on Thurs. night, the crew were wearing uniform shirts with what looked like an oval shaped patch on the left breast along with ISF hats. Were these a current ISF uniform shirt or a 'blast from the past'?

2) Included in the required qualifications umpires must meet to attain ISF certification, is there some sort of ISF mechanics component in the criteria? Training (clinic/camp) or evaluation/observation to assure that the umpire is proficient in proper ISF mechanics.

The emblem on the chest should have been the ISF shield. Mizuno used to embroider their name across the back of the shirt, highlighted in gold, but I believe those days are gone. Really, not even sure if Mizuno is still the manufacturer, but those were nice shirts.

Yes, but the problem is that all ISF umpires are not trained the same nor held to the same uniform standards which is why you will occasionally see an umpire without an all-black shoe. Each NGB is responsible for their umpires. Some are excellent while others, not so much. Obviously, the stronger the game is in a nation, the better the umpires. ISF does travel to hold clinics, but there is only so much you can do in some places.

Looks like someone is listening..... :D

But is that an "un-American" crew?

plate and U3 are from the DFW area

Finally, something that Mike and I can agree on. I concur, ASA should be ashamed. ISF too.

After listening to my wife talk about 'branding' for many years now, I agree. ISF needs to make sure that any game, but especially a televised game has the proper and newest ISF logo prominently displayed anywhere they can get it placed. The easiest is to make sure that the Umpires, who are going to be on TV almost as much as, or more than some players are uniformed in ISF gear.

A game that will be watched by America on basic cable should not be worked by umpires in ASA uniforms.

Is that a slight on ASA umpires? Or is ASA not allowed to be on basic cable due to some contractual issue? I'm confused by your general comment here.

Cannot answer for anyone else, but I would assume he meant that a tournament specific to sell international softball in the United States needs to be seen as an international game played under international rules and officiated by international umpires. It also offers the appearance, even though there is none in the case, of non-partisan officials indifferent to the countries represented.

even at my lowly level, no official I know would show up at a non-ASA event wearing ASA apparel.

I see that all the time.

I agree with you on that standpoint. outathm's statement seemed more generic when I read it, and not specific to this tournament.

Most of the general public doesn't give a hoot about what logo is on the umpire's hat.

Perhaps ASA is doing this intentionally to put their brand out there?

ISF is the one dropping the ball on this, it seems to me. If the tournament is sanctioned by ISF, it is their place to state requirements to the host, such as umpire uniforms.

No, ASA is the host, it is their responsibility. Just like those who do college and wear a conference hat. The conference school is the host, but the game is sanctioned and played under NCAA rules.

Who is the host of the NCAA Division I Softball Championships? ASA? It is at their (ASA's) stadium, just like the World Cup. I seriously doubt ASA could get away with having the umpires wear ASA uniforms in the WCWS.

ASA has nothing (and I mean nothing) to do with the CWS other than the NCAA leases the stadium from ASA. Ask someone from the National office next time if they could even get you 'comp' tickets or some such to a game. :D

World Cup is a much different story though. That Tournament is run by ISF in conjunction with ASA.

I did mean to say that ISF dropped the ball. I have no issue with ASA uniforms being worn, but it should be an ASA tournament to do so. I seem to remember last year tuning in to the "Premiere Girls Championship' games being televised on one of the 'other' sports only channels and seeing the umpires all wearing ASA gear, to include the ball bags on the plate umpire.

Now admittedly, I notice umpires more than the casual viewer, but the 'mom or dad' who was tuning in late would think this was an ASA tournament. The same is true of this tournament, with ASA being worn by the umpires. The casual observer would not have known this was being played under international rules, they would only see another 'brand' prominently displayed.

Not sure what tournament you saw, but I can ABSOLUTELY guarantee you did not see ASA anything at the Premier. SoCal ASA even had people there watching and taking pictures of who was there; there would have been an instant lawsuit for trademark infringement if PGF used anything ASA.

I am sure you saw it somewhere, but it wasn't there.

During the political dust-up that has gone on here the last several years between the state ASA commissioner and those opposed to him, there was "policing" of (or an attempt to police) umpires wearing ASA-logoed gear at the "opponents" tournaments by the state ASA commissioner's office. There were no threats of trademark lawsuits (AFAIK), but there were letters sent to umpires and such.

I never understood the rationale behind this, however.

Getting your brand out there is fundamental to promotion. Why would the ASA itself be opposed to having the competition have to visibly use ASA umpires? It seems to me it would indicate the opponent organization is lacking to the point they have to look to the ASA to provide officials. Why is this bad for ASA?

That is my point. NCAA is the host and sponsor. You are not going to see any umpires in different uniforms no matter where they umpired to get to that point.

If you notice during the NCAA Softball Championships, there are NCAA decals everywhere. Many are covering the ASA. ASA is not allowed to promote themselves unless they pay like any other sponsor. I believe the only place you will see "ASA" during those games is on the scoreboard as part of the stadium's name.

Why would a Ford commercial run footage showing a Chevy win a race at Daytona? Do you think Anheuser-Busch wouldn't take action if Sam Adams ran a spot showing a Clydesdale-drawn wagon loaded with Sam Adam's product entering Fenway Park?

Though lawsuits should be the last resort, if you are working ABC you should wear ABC's uniform. If XYZ did not want their brand associated with a competitor, they have every right to demand their trademarked logo is not included in any events other than those in which they choose to do so.

I didn't have a problem telling umpires working a PONY tournament to find another hat, shirt or ball bag that did not have ASA on it. I would not do it publicly or at the event I was observing, but afterwards at a local meeting or if I saw them.

It is a reasonable demand of any organization that values their brand.

You ever umpire with someone you were almost embarrassed they were wearing the same uniform?

Ever have a discussion with a coach who insisted the ASA rule was this or that because the umpire had an ASA on his hat or shirt when in fact it was another organization, but YOU are the one who is wrong?

Could go on all night, but I don't think you would bother reading ;)

I do not have a copy of the tape, but if you can find a cop of the 2012 or 2013 games that were aired on CBS sports, the umpires were wearing ASA gear. I do not care wither way, except that I am also one that will not allow an umpire to wear another organizations gear at a competing tournament.

In reality, the STRONG majority of umpires in the US were either trained by ASA, or trained by someone who was trained by ASA. That is just the way it is. However, if it is not an ASA sanctioned event, ASA gear needs to stay in the car or at home.

Premier uses modified HS ruleset.

You are likely mistaking it for TCS (triple crown) that does use ASA ruleset.

When in Rome, dress as a Roman.

In NYS, we have one standard uniform for high school. Only two items have logos on them, the sweater and jacket. The only reason they even have logos is to prevent umpires from buying non-umpire look-a-likes from stores. Nothing else has a logo, that way umpires can use the same uniform for other sanctioned events that don't require a specific uniform.

What I can't understand is why every time I go to a Babe Ruth, Little League or any other game assigned through a local ASA association, all of the umpires are wearing ASA uniforms. That's leaving aside the fact that ASA is printed on everything from the guys socks to his ball bags. Umpires begin to look like bulletin boards rather than officials.

My hat is never going to contradict the rules I'm using.

Either wear the uniform of the rule set or wear a plain uniform.

Because they have so few of their own to run? :D
It is, of course, their right to request / demand that their brand not be associated with another event. And, I never wore ASA-logoed gear when it was not an ASA-sanctioned game/tournament (referring to my post, above). I'm not arguing XYZ's right to object, just wondering about the wisdom of it as opposed to making hay from it. Would Chevy sue if Ford publicized their win at Daytona? Perhaps they would; maybe they shouldn't!

Yes, of course. But they were wearing the proper logos for the sanction!

No. I have had coaches make similar arguments, but it had nothing to do with the umpire's hat, but rather the rule set being used at the tournament. And, I'm never wrong! ;)

I always read what you write, Mike! :rolleyes:

A couple years ago, I was working a showcase under ASA sanction. The host organization played ASA travel ball, but their league was PONY sanctioned.

During ground rules, this coach started discussing rules about line-ups and subs, etc. that were PONY or local rule specific. My partner (PU) was becoming frustrated because no matter how many times he noted that wasn't an ASA rule, she just wouldn't shut up and kept rambling. Before he (and the other coach) blew a gasket, I told her, "Ma'am, that may be what your league or other rules allow, this is straight-out-of-the-book ASA rules today." Then she started on me with, "but in PONY..." and I stepped up, held up the ASA logo on my shirt and said, "ASA, not PONY" hoping the visual would get the point across. The opposing coach was pissed, but at the same time laughing wondering what type of coach cannot figure this out.

To my surprise, she stated that my shirt was the same shirt her league umpires wear! That did not make me a happy camper, but not so much they were wearing the uniform, but the information and rules being bantered about were not representative of the ASA game and all that can do is add to the confusion which the rest of us must deal with down the road.

And I doubt that confusion is just one way. Probably plenty of other umpires working non-ASA get tired of hearing what ASA does instead of that of the rule set under which the game in front of them is being played.
Why is it I have a feeling you are just stringing this along to boost your post count to make up for the time lost? ;) :D

Years ago, my local insisted on ASA caps, etc. for HS because we are an ASA association. I was often criticized for wearing plain uniforms as it clearly said in the HS rule book. We finally corrected that, but it might relate to the issue above; also possibly because of no other uniforms.

Aw, heck, Mike, for years and years we were ASA-only for girls fastpitch in this state, but with all the state, league, and tournament rules added on / changed, you might not recognize it! Just a few: bat the roster, can play with 8 players with no out when the #9 slot rolls around, umpires have authority to eject fans, strict no-profanity rule against players, coaches, AND fans... We'd have coaches AND umpires that when it came time for championship play, neither had any clue how to manage a line up.

ASA sanction does not preserve the "purity" of the rules.
Caught me! :D

I keep saying, the ASA is an empty and spineless brand. Seems it wasn't always that way, but its image has been so diluted its generic, even shameful. How and who let it get that way? :(

Absolutely agree with this - especially the last sentence - "Either wear the uniform of the rule set or wear a plain uniform."

For as long as I've known anything about ASA and how they run their business, they have been quite clear that the local associations & leagues have a lot of latitude and that the complete "by the book" rules are for Championship Play.

Absolutely correct. Most umpires fail to recognize that when you have letters/patches on your shirt/hat/ball bag you could open yourself up to a wide range of issues. Steve, you and I have seen a lot of strange uniforms in our time "on the boarder." It was interesting that a coach once pointed out how my partner and I were dressed in plain uniforms.

What this thread has failed to addressed is the 'why?'. My theory is purely economics. Most won't spend the extra money on plain clothing. For example, my area runs a regional college club tournament in the fall. This is their first experience with "college ball" (it is about one level below DIII). They play with NCAA rules with some modifications. The local guys have ASA and State HS hats, and I keep harping on not wearing logo'ed hats. They won't purchase them. Most wear a plain jacket, so the shirt really isn't an issue. But I have made numerous attempts to change the hats.

I am a stickler about wearing the proper uniform (for myself... I have no position of authority over what anyone else wears).

I have logoed shirts and hats for ASA, MSF/ASA, AFA (now defunct here), NAFA, and USSSA. I have ASA-logoed ball bags, and both navy and black plain ball bags. I have plain navy hats and plain black hats. I have non-logoed powder blue with red, white, and blue stripes shirts, and powder blue with navy, blue and white stripes shirts. I have an ASA logoed jacket and a non-logoed jacket. I have so much umpire uniform crap I have my own closet for it (the wife kicked it out of our MBR closet).

My annoyance is not having to buy the proper uniform for the sanction, but the change for change sake stuff that just costs money for no good reason (our high schools went from red/white/blue power blue to navy/blue/white apparently to appease the college guys... phooey... they make more money that I do; let THEM buy the extra shirts!) And, during the sanctioning food fight here, AFA came and went and the invented NAFA took its place, leaving me with AFA stuff I'll never use again. And, while I'm bitching, lets not forget the MSF/ASA shirts; standard ASA wasn't allowed; it had to be the MSF/ASA shirt! More shirts I'll never use again.

Its been explained that has been and is their position. I'm talking about protecting brand and image.

Wearing properly logo'ed uniforms is part of the cost of working. Umpiring is an avocation, not an occupation. The ASA is sandbagged with paycheck umpires, something that could easily be fixed if they made small adjustments to policy and enforcement.

Its those same paycheck umpires that have no business working college ball, and that is what the NCAA dictated years ago.

Funny, my gripe here in NY is that we DON'T wear logos, not even on the hat! All we wear is plain hats and plain powder blue shirts. There have been prototype NYSSO hats floating around, but they do not want to go that route. We get told that the reason for this, is that for the people working way upstate (Watertown, Glens Falls, etc), it would be a burden, as they only work 10 or so games a year.

This is why, for example, it took them FOREVER to dump the ELBECOs - and that was only because ASA stopped selling them. Same thing with the gray/navy blue pants.

My annoyance is ...snip ... the change for change sake stuff that just costs money for no good reason

My annoyance is ...snip ... the change for change sake stuff that just costs money for no good reason

My annoyance is ...snip ... the change for change sake stuff that just costs money for no good reason

The latest is USSSA's 4th shirt vendor in 5 years and caps only 2 years old being obsolete.

You totally missed to point of my post. The two tournaments I referred to are not sanctioned by any organization (or ones that at least manufactures any uniforms). But umpires are still wearing logos because that's what the only hats/shirts they have purchased for umpiring.

We understand you have a burr in one of your orifices about ASA for some reason. We get it, we understand, move on with another argument. The ASA isn't the only organization that has umpires that are out to collect money. I believe you can find that in every organization. Politics exists in every organization as well.

And what exactly did the NCAA "dictate years ago"?

No, I think YOU missed the point.

Its not just the ASA, its their sloppy umpires that wear the brand simply to garner the paychecks when they have no business doing so. If you let them get away with it, they do it, and they do.

Really? You can get plain hats at Academy for $6. This can't be the reason.

Personally, I have TWO shirts and TWO hats with the ASA logo - and more than 10 shirts and at least 6 hats with no logo at all (and, of course, one TASO hat). I find myself more prepared for whatever may come along if I have unlogo'd gear handy.

Get ready. There are new NFHS-logoed umpire shirts for next year. And our state changed the logo that goes on the shirt, as well as came out with a newly-logoed hat (we wore plain hats before). So the state patches I have at home to iron on new shirts are obsolete now.

ASA has also come out with newly logoed hats and shirts.

There should be a wear-out period for old stuff in these organizations. When I was in the military, new uniform requirements would come out on occasion. We could continue to wear the old uniforms for 3-5 years to ease the burden of purchasing the new items, and to not screw the troops who just bought the old items without realizing new ones were coming out.

Amateur sports organizations should do the same thing. Don't screw umpires who just bought shirts and hats by making them have to wear the new stuff immediately. Allow a phase-out period so that it's acceptable to have crews with a mix of the old and new for a few seasons.

Working with unlogo'ed hat is relatively new here. We had an abundance of ASA tournaments in the past, and high school ball. Therefore, that was the gear. So when this tournament came around, most couldn't/wouldn't lay out the necessary expense to get plain clothing.

Plus, I didn't say it was the only reason, just another reason. It is all systemic anyway, umpires that do care about not looking like a clown are those that put the time, effort and money into becoming better.

I have yet to see an NCAA umpire wear NCAA or conference uniform, HS umpire wear NFHS or assoc uniform, USSSA umpire wear utrip uniform, or any other sanction umpire wear uniform out of sanction. BUT, I frequently see ASA umpires wearing ASA at non-ASA specific sanction events. I say its an ASA and ASA umpire problem, but you insist otherwise.

For once I somewhat agree with you. I don't see NCAA gear worn elsewhere. I don't see USSSA worn elsewhere. I DO see, however, the TASO hat worn elsewhere --- usually by 1st year high school guys who think they are big-timing the others by showing up wearing it. Interestingly, by the 2nd year these same guys realize how stupid they looked and cut it out.

On the other hand, at least around here, it's severely frowned upon by assignors to allow people to wear the ASA hat at a non-ASA event... and if you try wearing one at a NFSA event, it's likely to get you booted for the entire weekend. That said, on the RARE occasion that someone wears something they are not supposed to, it's ASA gear. I suspect, at least in the cases of these rare individuals, that it's because ASA is the only organization training newbies - and the newbies are the ones that don't know any better until someone tells them.

Well, I've seen umpires from NY wear hats, jackets and shirts with NY specific logos while not even in NY. And even better, they wear baseball associations for softball games. I've seen guys wear high school uniforms out of association (and for multiple sports, including basketball and football). This isn't a problem unique to ASA logo gear. ASA may be more prevalent, but it is far from unique.

My point: It says more about the umpire rather than an association.

OK, now I understand, you are putting that emphasis on the umpires. I won't disagree with you, umpires doesn't get a free pass. I am putting far more emphasis on the ASA than most staunch ASA guys can stomach, but that's just me and makes for great diversity of viewpoints.

My point is, the ASA owns its problems like it or not, and taking an oblivious approach and passing the buck doesn't help matters. So many give the ASA a free pass for what is so obviously self made problems.

I sometimes wonder that those that staunchly defend the ASA aren't really the problem.

I've seen more than I want to of umpires wearing their high school uniforms doing other games. I've seen the same in ASA games, PONY games, and others. I've even seen NCAA conference logos in non-NCAA games. I get tired of pee-ing into the wind. When I see that and verify with the tournament directors/authorities that they are not going to fix it - I don't work at those tournaments again - and I let them know why.

And three different colors to boot!

I'm hardly a "staunch ASA guy". Last year, I didn't even register with ASA.

However, as a front-line witness to the sanctioning food fight that went on here over the previous 5+ years, "ASA" (including ASA national all the way down to the state commissioner) has no authority over the individual umpire. He is an independent contractor and he owns his own gear. He can wear his shirt and hat anywhere he wants to. The ASA official-dom cannot even "punish" bad actors by not assigning them games or tournaments, since that is all done through independent assignors, who work agreements with the leagues and the tournaments, not with ASA. The state commissioner tried to lay down the law regarding ASA-logoed gear being used at non-ASA games, but, in reality, he had no law to lay down. The only hammer the ASA has is with their championship play assignments.

What do expect ASA to actually do? They don't control the umpires. They don't control the leagues. They don't control most of the tournaments. They don't control the assignors. The "don't care" umpires who wear whatever they have to any ol' game don't want to do an ASA national anyway, so even that "stick" is a wet noodle to them.

NCAA & the NCAA conferences have a much bigger stick, since they control the game assignments (I think... college guys here can correct/elaborate if they wish). You can't really compare schools (college or HS) to independent leagues sanctioned through ASA.

And, nobody would wear USSSA shirts to a non-USSSA event because, well, they are RED! :eek:

It does when the person running the tournament says it does.

But do you know what the real problem is? Laziness and apathy. People expect others to tolerate their laziness and others just don't care.

Personally, I'm a believer that if you choose to do something, it is your responsibility to find a way to learn and understand whatever it is, not everyone else's responsibility to put up with you when you do not.

If you want to be a coach, be a coach and do it right. Otherwise, sit down. If you want to be an umpire, do it right. Otherwise, take up another pastime.

The people in this country seem to have adopted a point of satisfaction and success with a manta of, "well, it's good enough".

This is evident in almost everything we do, not only on the field, but in many parts of our lives.

In think you are touching on the exact area I have issue with, so you are not so far from my disbelief as you thought.

How does the ASA function properly when it is so divorced and disconnected from the games? My point is that it doesn't, and the fault is its own. The structure it setup to isolate itself from the people locally was decided entirely from within. The distance it has created is its own choosing, you can't blame the umpires for that, but we all pay that price.

What I find so precious about the ASA it is so entirely inclusive, everyone is welcome to participate in softball. But it does so not at its own expense, but everyone else's. This cannot be a one size fits all, at least not possible the way I see it. SP and FP are two different games culturally, so different treatment is appropriate. Stricter governance and control for the good of the game is not that hard, unless you just don't care.

But just blaming umpires, that won't get you very far when no one is listening. Perhaps its not the "don't care" umpires, but the don't care governing body that is the problem.

Mike, remember one thing...

When you point the finger as you have done, three of your own fingers are pointing right back at you. If you wanted to hold parties accountable, what seat do you sit?

What is your motive with this? Please make a point, with a corrective suggestion and give up the personals.

Are you his guard or attack dog? You seem to arrive on cue every time. Mike seems well equipped to take care of himself.

Nothing personal, I was under the impression mike was high up the food chain in the ASA to do something about what he dislikes, that is all. He comes off as a person within with the authority. It only makes sense that he do something other than to complain.

Seems to me you've created this role for ASA that you expect them to fulfill and then blame them for not fulfilling it. There is no such entity that has the amount of control you seem to expect them to have. It is not ASA's problem when some random umpire wears it's gear to non-ASA events - and expecting them to be able to police that is honestly quite foolish.

:eek:

;)

His point is to Satanize ASA on any platform he can find, but I really don't believe he knows or understands what ASA's function or mission statement or responsibility is.

But does anyone see the irony in the way he has turned the thread?

I think demonizing the ASA is giving it too much credit.

The ASA has really over-managed some areas, and under-managed others. That doesn't make it evil, it makes it inept.

Compliance is gained by enforcement. Controlling quality sometimes requires removing irregularities. Doing something makes sense, because doing nothing isn't helping matters. Leadership needs to come from the top down when leadership fails from the bottom up.

There is nothing here that needs to be helped.

Really?

OK, I'm coming from a different viewpoint then. If you see no problem, then if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I see it different tho.

Wow! This has ranged widely. I have been a member of this forum for a long time, read it often, but have never posted before - so here goes nothing.
The first thing I ask my assigner is "WHAT UNIFORM FOR THIS EVENT?" I certainly wouldn't wear just anything I feel like. Doug

If you can't answer my question, at least "give up the personals", as above.
:eek: :eek: :( :(

I cant believe I read all 5 pages of this..... :rolleyes:

So now I'm confused. Sorry I didn't see this earlier in the discussion.

If this tournament is "purely ASA", why wouldn't the umpires wear ASA? And what is the tie-in with ISF? Is there some sort of agreement between the two organizations to conduct this thing? Why isn't the championship "purely ISF"?

I just did, or I can ignore you.

For the same reason the Canada Cup is purely Softball Canada, Japan Cup is purely the Japan Softball Assn. They are all sanctioned and played by ISF rules.

+ 1

With Bruce and Kathy on your NYSSO Board, you are mistaken to say GF area, I do without even trying 200+ fast pitch games a year in that area. We go all Winter with the Dome, I agree that there are places that only do HS games. Not CDSUA.