ASA Women's FP. Confusion in the offensive dugout; no batter appears. PU is getting impatient; yells for a batter, none appear.

Finally tells F1 to pitch as batter is coming out of dugout. F1 throws two bounces to F2, PU calls strike.

Def coach yells "That's in the dirt. You can't call that a strike. You have to call the pitch where it is!"

PU says "No matter where it goes, I can call it a strike."

Who is right? (Can you answer without looking in your rule book? I couldn't get it right until I looked it up.)

WMB

Anything is a strike when the batter refuses to get in the box. At least in Little League. I would assume it's the same (at least untill someone tells me I'm wrong) Little League6.02 c .....the umpire shall order the pitcher to pitch,and shall call strike on each such pitch.

[Edited by bethsdad on Jul 31st, 2003 at 10:30 AM]

In that situation, the proper thing for the umpire to do is to just call a strike, not call for a pitch. No pitch is necessary (speaking ASA).

Since he called for the pitch, he just made trouble for himself, but he can call it a strike.

As discussed in another thread, the umpire CANNOT call for a pitch without a batter IN THE BOX.

Simply call the strike. This sounds like one of your veterans who doesn't go to the appropriate clinics or already knows everything, so they go more to socialize than actually learn how to umpire a ball game.

ball in dirt called a strike
 

Sometimes we can be our own worse enemy. If batter refuses to get in the box, call a strike. If team is a bit confused and forgot who the next batter is...yeah its bad..but don't I would hope we don't add to the problem by calling a strike on someone who is hurrying to get her bat/gloves etc because of the coaches changes or perhaps its the first inning. Just take a deep breath and have some fun.

OK, you guys got it. The answer obviously is that they both were wrong - no pitch is required.

I didn't get into the discussion, but I realized later that I was mistaking this with the call of the pitch when a batter steps out and the umpire refused to call time. There you allow the pitcher to throw and call ball/strike depending on the position of the ball. So I had to go to the rule book to get myself clear.


Now - isn't there a rule somewhere - maybe different rule book - maybe Baseball - where you have a pitcher throw and it is called a strike regardless of it's location? Or is this another old myth that won't go away.

Mike - do you know my partner? "This sounds like one of your veterans who doesn't go to the appropriate clinics or already knows everything, so they go more to socialize than actually learn how to umpire a ball game."

How 'bout fly ball caught outside the foul lines. "FOUL - CATCH!" In his world it is a foul ball caught for an out. When we get into discussion about "foul ball is dead ball" or "foul ball is a strike" (when less than 2 strikes), or "you can't get an out on a foul ball," it doesn't make a difference. He has situations where foul ball is dead, and where it is not! This is the latter, because he will allow a runner to advance on a foul ball caught for an out.

This happened last night. 2 strikes on batter, then foul tip. Hands go up and "FOUL - BATTER IS OUT!" Oh yes, a foul tip is a foul ball! But this one isn't dead ball. I just grimace and turn away.

I'm BU in "A", ball hit to fence. I've got the B-R all the way to 3B; I coming into 3B looking to the outfield for the throw. I run into someone - it's my partner! He says "I've got 3B; you are supposed to peel off at 2B and go home." That one I have finally trained him to stay home.

But - in spite of his stubborn idiosyncrasies , he is a very good umpire and I enjoy working with him.

WMB

I don't know ASA rules, but for OBR this is the right call. But for FED the umpire should not tell the pitcher to pitch, he should just call a strike on the batter.

Softball NFHS rules says under 7-3-1 effect. If the batter steps out of the box or holds up her hand to request time and the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains alive.
It doesn't say it has to be in the strike zone, just legally delivered. Dave

"it shall be called a strike "

Good point, Shipwreck, and I'll try to remember that when I am again calling NFHS games. However, this game is under ASA rules, and ASA only says to call the pitch. Doesn't say whether to call it a ball or strike, just to call it. 7.3.E Effect.

WMB

However, that isn't what happened here - the batter never entered the box in the first place. So, the pitcher cannot legally deliver a pitch.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota

Quote:

However, that isn't what happened here...

Good question to refresh us on. I pretty sure that back in '93 or so, NFHS stated that if the batter did not enter the box that the umpire should becon the pitcher to deliver the ball and "shall" call a strike. I remember that I missed the question on an exam and later found the answer in the Case Book. (My first rookie mistake: ignoring the case book while studying.)

Currently NFHS seems to agree with other codes and the 7.3.1 Penalty states in part,<b> "For failure of the batter to be ready within 20 seconds after the ball has been returned to the pitcher, the umpire shall call a strike. If it is the third strike, the umpire shall call time and declare the batter out."</b>

By the way... how did the "I've got 3B; you are supposed to peel off at 2B and go home" mechanic ever get started? I think the next partner that suggest that to me, I am going to counter with: "Let's have the BU take the call at 1B, the PU then take 2B, BU take 3B and PU take home." That seems to make just about as much sense.

There is no OBR in SOFTball.

It certainly doen't make sense with a BR. There was a time whne with the only runner on 2nd and in B for SP, we tried PU covering 3rd (being closer) and BU covering home but gave it up.

ASA FP or SP
Rule 7 Sec. 5.b A ball is called by the umpire for each legally pitched ball that:
#4 the batter swings at, after the ball hits the ground or home plate.

so according to rule this is a ball. The umpire should have never called for a pitch.

The operative word is "after". A swing and miss before touching the ground is a strike.

Wrap-up question: Is there any code that requires the pitcher to deliver a pitch for a delay-type penalty strike?

"ASA FP or SP
Rule 7 Sec. 5.b A ball is called by the umpire for each legally pitched ball that: #4 the batter swings at, after the ball hits the ground or home plate."

Hey Cec, you not awake yet? How did this get past your normally sharp eyes?

We are talking FP here, nelyak. What you quoted is a SP rule, which kills the ball when it touches the ground. In FP the ball stays alive and all sorts of things can happen.

WMB

Wow, first he neglects to serve my coffee and then picks on my myopic response! :D Just because it says "Slow Pitch Only" (except slower pitch) in the rule, he thinks I should have noticed.
BTW, what's the "#4" in the above. Also, any answer to my Q?

As someone who calls both sports, I never understand why umpires who only call one of the sports want to pretend the other doesn't exist.

Many people PLAY softball, but WATCH baseball, or umpire both. It causes confusion on the softball diamond or the baseball diamond when the players (or worse, the UMPIRES) don't know the difference. That said, I think it's important to know the differences.

In baseball (OBR, the pro book used by most amateur leagues), the pitch must be delivered in this situation and it WILL be called a strike. Here is the entire sitation:

6.02(c) If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter's box during his time at bat, the umpire shall order the pitcher to pitch, and shall call "Strike" on each such pitch. The batter may take his proper position after any such pitch, and the regular ball and strike count shall continue, but if he does not take his proper position before three strikes are called, he shall be declared out.

BTW, I've had the reverse happen in my lifetime. Working baseball, I had a runner hit with a fair batted baseball. In baseball, this is an out unless the ball is a declared infield fly. That was the only game I ever worked that went to protest.

While many of you have no interest in baseball or may dislike baseball, I think it is to your advantage to know the differences -- it can head off problems on the field. I've used the phrase, "that's the rule in softball, but not in baseball" before and it has worked well for me.

Rich

"As someone who calls both sports, I never understand why umpires who only call one of the sports want to pretend the other doesn't exist"

It's not that we don't care about other sports; it's a matter of focus. This is a softball board, and we are softball umpires that discuss softball issues. Bringing in baseball situations or rules just muddies up the discussion.

Fact is, we have enough trouble just dealing with all our own rule variations (FP, SP, NFHS, ASA, U-trip, L.L., NCAA, PONY, AFA, NSA, Dixie, plus Rec League local rules.)

I used to call HS baseball, but I realized that I could not become a high quality umpire in both sports so I chose to focus only on softball. There are simply way too many rule differences, mechanic differences, and attitude differences to overcome. Even within the national organizations that write rules for both sports (NFHS, L.L.), there is limited coordination between their two rules committees.

This thread started with a call by a baseball umpire! My partner's first love is baseball; he has been a umpire for 30 years, he has worked HS state finals in baseball. He is a good umpire, but he doesn't know softball! We’ve had some very angry arguments in the parking lot after games because of these issues.

Example: Baseball – batter not in box, order pitch, call strike. SB – do not allow pitch, call strike.

SB mechanic: BU takes B-R all the way to 3B. BB mechanic: U2 only takes B-R to 2B then holds to either take runner back to 2B, or to go home. U1 has B-R into 3B. That is why I ran into him the first time I took a B-R to 3B, and why he assumed that I would “peel off and go home.” (That should answer your question, SC Ump.)

BB mechanic: on a steal of 2B, U2 is on the infield and is in a good position to take the runner to 3B if the throw goes past 2B. In SB, the BU coming from the “B” position will be behind 2B and cannot take the runner to 3B. In a hundred games I’ve done with a softball ump, I never have to think about 3B in this situation, I know that PU will be there. In this summer league, there have been several times the ball has gone through and I’ve looked up to see my partner watching the play from home plate. I’ve talked about this, but his 30 years of BB training just traps him at home.

I personally like baseball; I take in a HS game whenever I can, and I watch the NCAA playoff and WS. But I will not watch MLB. (Of course, if you are from Michigan and are a Tigers fan, that is understandable!)

WMB

The rule cited applies ONLY to SP. In FP, the ball is live and should be called a strike if the batter attempt to hit it.

I agree that knowing other rules sometimes adds credibility when explaining a rule; but I rarely have to "instruct" anyone who thinks HARDball rules and I barely have enough time to keep up with 6 sets of SOFTball rules. I don't object very much to umpires mentioning HARDball rules on this forum as long as they are clearly separated, not used to answer a SOFTball question and don't expect me to remember them;).

Yes, the PU has the stealing runner from 1st on an overthrow if the BU is in B; but I object to anyone saying I can't get there from B. As soon as the ball is past, I'm hooking inside the bases anyway.

Huh?
 

Sorry guy! Don't know what rulebook you have, but, I'm sitting here with the ASA 2003 book, and, that is NOT the way the rule reads. Rule 7.5.A is for Fast Pitch only. Rule 7.5.B (which you noted) applies to Slow Pitch only.

Rule 7 Sect 5. A ball is called by the Umpire
A. (FP Only) For each legally pitched ball which does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does NOT swing. (capitalization is mine)
Effect: The ball is in play and runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out.

B. (SP Only) For each legally pitched ball which does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing. Any pitched ball that hits the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter. If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball.
Effect: The ball is dead and runners may not advance. (16-inch SL): The ball remains live; however, runners cannot advance.

Take a look at Rule 7.4.C. In fast pitch softball, when a batter swings at a legally pitched ball, you have a strike. It doesn't matter if it is 10 feet over her head, or, if it hits the ground 10 feet in front of the plate, or, if it hits her, or, if it hits the plate….It's still a swinging strike.

Newter

Cecilone:
Yes, the operative word is after, however the original post said, "F1 throws 2 bouncer to F2 and PU calls strike"
If the batter had swung at this pitch the PU should have called a ball according to rule. Again code simply states that for delay the PU should simply call a strike every 20 seconds.

"Cecilone: Yes, the operative word is after, however the original post said, "F1 throws 2 bouncer to F2 and PU calls strike" The original post was about an ASA Women's FastPitch game.

"If the batter had swung at this pitch the PU should have called a ball according to rule." Fastpitch game, not SlowPitch! Besides, there was NO batter. The umpire was trying to penalize the offensive team for failing to get a batter to the plate.

"Again code simply states that for delay the PU should simply call a strike every 20 seconds." TEN seconds!

WMB

[Edited by WestMichBlue on Aug 7th, 2003 at 11:07 PM]