Rules Trivia
 

ASA - Runners on the corners, 2 outs. The batter hits into the outfield, and it falls fair in deep left. The runner from 3rd scores easily. The runner from 1st rounds 2nd, but as the throw is coming in, she realizes she missed the bag. She turns around and slides into 2nd, but she overslides and ends up on the other side of the base (between 1st and 2nd). She is tagged by the 2B. Count the run?

(This one is good, as the place where this was posted has umpires on both sides of the argument)

So, the question is: In ASA is the force reinstated?

He already asked the question, he wants the answer. :p

I haven't looked at an ASA rulebook in years. If memory serves, the force is reinstated and the run wouldn't count.

$0.02

Yep.

I have no run as well. Several umpires who usually get them right on that site are scoring the run.

Retreating from the base to which the runner was forced reinstates the force out. I would go with no run scoring.

Others have given the ASA ruling.
What place is this? TiA

my call is you have a stupid base runner. should just carry on and pray to the old gods that defense doesn't appeal!

This is not an appeal play. Runner was tagged out, while off the bag (if I read right).
As the third out is made, plate umpire should immediately and emphatically wave off the run.

ok..here we go....i dont have her retreating to first base. i have her retreating to second base and oversliding it making this a timing play. score the run..
if the runner rounds second base, stops and then rerounds(is that a word?) second base and heads toward first base, thinking perhaps that she missed first base, and then gets put out i would have a reinstated force and the run would not count

I'm kinda curious why. Perhaps they feel that a runner who overslides the bag going back to second really isn't between first and second?

I envision this runner ending up past the bag but still in the line extended between third and second. IOW, her slide took her towards right-center field. Would you really consider that "between first and second"?

She is retreating to 2nd base...
 

But, in doing so basically runs "past" second base by over sliding which puts her back between 1st and 2nd base. This would reinstate the force and since she is put out before regaining second base you now have a force out and no run can score.

good point...but even if the runner did end up in the base line of 1st and 2nd id still have a problem considering her slide back into 2nd base an attempt to retreat to first. i know this is a different situation but i think its comparable. a runner overrunning first base isnt always considered an attempt to go to second base but as an umpire we are trained to detect any attempt or motion that we consider an attempt to advance to 2nd and then rule accordingly...i think the same logic should apply to the OP

Straight from the rule book.
 

THE RUNNER IS OUT.
When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base. If the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base to which the runner is forced.

i understand that and would respect your decision rule accordingly if you considered the overslide back to second a retreat to first base. my arguement being an overslide back to second is just that, an overslide to second not an attempt to retreat to first base in most cases..also, if you consider it a retreat, a runner sliding back into second after rounding it is not reallty retreating 'towards' the base first occupied. they are retreating 'towards' right field as manny alluded to

Okay, forget the "slide" portion, it is irrelevant.

The point that the player was running the bases in reverse order and passed 2B. If you want to be logical, if there was no trailing R/BR, ask yourself if this runner can now retreat to 1B? Would you make the runner retouch 2B before doing so?

ok...thank you..i certainly understand why the ruling would be that way. i was just trying to look at it from another angle..i fought the good fight and lost..lol...the good thing is that if this play ever does happen i will know the correct call...thank you all for the debate and informative feedback

I agree. An overslide of second base is not what the intent of the rule would seem to be. I would call this an out at second for the tag, but in ASA it would not be a force out.



Now let's put this back into NFHS rules for a second. What would the NFHS call be. Let's say as they tagged her out, the defense also appeals that she missed second base, what do you have?

That would probably be a protest lost. Rule clearly states that the force is reinstated.

I agree with Irish
 

The rule states "for any reason". I think it's pretty clear.

You keep saying an attempt. It's not an attempt to do anything. It doesn't have to be. It's an actual runner who is now closer to 1st than 3rd. The force is back on, by rule.

I can see both sides of the argument.

If she was running from 1st to 2nd overslid the base and was tagged out, she achieved 2nd base negating the force play. Then it becomes a timing play - did the runner score before the tag or not.

In the OP, she is assumed to have touched the base when passing it and this would have been an appeal situation based on defense noticing the missed base. But she realized the miss and went back to touch. Sliding in and (assumedly touching the base) removed the appeal possibility. Oversliding and perhaps losing contact with the base by her fingers or standing up and losing her balance to the first base side of the base and her foot lifting up off the base while being tagged out is a tough sell for me to re-instate the force play. If I didn't think she was actually trying to return to 1B, this is where my logic is apparently in conflict with the rule.

But I don't make the rules, only try to understand them and rule accordingly.

I still don't agree with this premise that a runner "retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied" when she overslides the base in reverse, especially if that overslide doesn't take the runner into the general direction of that previous base. To me, the key word is "retreats", which implies an active, bona fide attempt to return.

If you believe that an overslide in the opposite direction is considered retreating, then how would you treat a BR who singles, takes a wide turn at first, tries to dive back to the bag when the defense makes a play on her, and she overslides the bag as F3 tries to tag her? Are you going to invoke the rule that penalizes a BR for retreating back to home to avoid a tag, and immediately call a Dead Ball and rule her out?

Bases are 60' apart. If a runner overslides a bag in reverse, and she remains more than 60' away from the previous base, how is she between the bases?

Taking this a little further. Bases loaded shot to shallow outfield. Center takes the ball to second where she just misses getting a sliding R3. Without calling time R3 decides to get up and as she does F6 tags her while she is standing just off the bag between first and second. Are you really not counting that run?

Manny, if the ball got away during the overslide, and the runner then attempts to advance to third, but doesn't step on 2nd - what's your ruling on the appeal of a missed base at 2nd?

That's interesting.

That's not relevant to me.

I challenge ANYONE to show me ANYTHING which mentions "oversliding" as being relevant in this process?

You are all talking in ****ing circles and making up every little excuse you can trying to justify "your belief".

Was the runner proceeding in a reverse order? Once the runner got up, can the runner than go to 1B? If there wasn't a runner there, or a BR still advancing to that base, would not the answer be yes? If the runner does that and the play comes to an end, are you going to call time and award the runner 2B because that was they base that was touched? However, since there is a trailing runner, this cannot be anything, but a force out.

Define RETREAT.

Why? Why would you ask him to define a word he did not use?

Manny ... I'll ask another question. Say, after the overslide, the runner was contacted by a fielder and obstructed in some way. Would you say that runner was obstructed between 2nd and 3rd? Or between 1st and 2nd?

The runner is obviously not on 2nd. The runner is obviously not between 2nd and 3rd. So ... where is the runner? Very plainly (and obviously, to most of us) between 1st and 2nd. And due to the existence of a BR at 1st, the runner is, by rule, forced to advance to 2nd.

I'm actually with you on this. In my opinion, runner who runs (and therefore slides) past second is retreating toward first if she's any where to the right field side of second base. But I just don't buy your arguments on this point for the reason of the example I posted above:

Bases loaded shot to shallow outfield. Center takes the ball to second where she just misses getting a sliding R3. Without calling time R3 decides to get up and as she does F6 tags her while she is standing just off the bag between first and second. Are you really not counting that run?

That runner is between 1st and 2nd. If she gets obstructed while standing there and before being tagged (maybe F4 was planning to cover the base too and can't hold up), then she was obstructed between 1st and 2nd. She's closer to 1st than to third. Etc. I think you have to get there by defining retreat to mean something that does not mean intentionally trying to return. I think if you are intentionally running the bases backwards, when you pass a base you are now retreating toward the prior base absent something really strange happening.

There is no "intentionally" in any of this.

Why not? If a runner overruns first base, she is still considered to be at first. If she turns at a 90-degree angle into foul territory after touching first, are you suggesting she's no longer at first, but instead she's now between home and first?

There's nothing in the rules that states a runner cannot overrun other bases. If she does, she's simply susceptible to being tagged out, unlike the case at first. The question is: Is she really between bases when she overruns a base but makes no move in the direction of another base?

Take this as an extreme example: Runner from first overruns second, and peels to the right towards center field. What's her status? Is she between first and second, or second and third? Or is she still at second, and just put herself at risk for being tagged out?

Or take your OP, but she tries to do a headfirst hook slide on the left-center field side of the bag (because the throw is coming from F9), and she goes beyond the bag such that her body is left of the extended line between third and second. Is she now considered between second and first?

To address IM's question, I'm not justifying any belief. I just think there's a gap in the rule that covers this specific situation. If the overrun/overslide takes a runner towards another base, that's a no-brainer. I'm just asking what happens when the overrun/overslide goes away from any base.

Do I really need to walk you through what's different at first base than at 2nd or 3rd? I don't think I do - you're an umpire. This is silly.

Yawn. I think we've ventured into the "arguing for the sake of arguing" stage. You've been told the right way to rule this (and no, I don't mean by me). What you decide to do with it is up to you.

I don't have R1 retreating to 1B as she is sliding into 2B. If she were retreating, she would be upright touching 2B trying to get back to 1B, therefore I don't have the force re-instated. By sliding over 2B, she has corrected her missed base and thus removed the right to appeal the missed base. By her sliding past 2B, I have her in jeopardy to being put out for being off of 2B. Because this is now a timing play, score the run, end of half-inning.

Please correct me if my thinking is not correct.

Your thinking is not correct. Please see Irish's post. This one was easy and you two have given me tired-head. (No offense!). Frankly, if you're not going to believe Irish on something, there are literally no words I could say to convince you.

I will check my ASA rulebook when I get home. Still trying to learn ASA rule differences. Hope your head gets to feeling better. :)