Obstruction question

[chapmaja]

Similar to the obstruction trivia question.

R1 on 1b, B2 hits a line drive to 3B which is caught. R1 is running on the pitch and is run into by F3 knocking her to the ground. R1 then gets up and makes it to second.

a) The 1b coach is yelling at R1 to come back to 1b. As she leaves second base to return to 1b, F5 throws back to F3 who touches 1b.

b) The ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle. As the coach comes out request time for a dead ball appea), the 1b coach yells at R1 who starts running back to 1b. The pitcher does not see this and holds the ball. The umpire does not grant time.

c) The ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle. As the coach comes out request time for a dead ball appeal, the 1b coach yells at R1 who starts running back to 1b. The pitcher does not see this and holds the ball. The umpire does grant time to the coach.

d) The ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle who then appeals verbally the BU that R1 left base early

What is the call and what is the award in each scenario.

[MD Longhorn]

A depends on the ruleset.
B and C are the same, an out (and a dead ball) occurs when the runner leaves 2nd base while the ball is in the pitching circle. The time out is irrelevant as it occurred after the runner is out.
D - a verbal appeal like this cannot be made during live ball action. At some point, when it's apparent that play has ceased, the umpire needs to call time, and announce the award of first base to the obstructed runner. If she goes back, she's safe. If she doesn't, we can then entertain a dead ball appeal at first base for leaving early.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

D - a verbal appeal like this cannot be made during live ball action. At some point, when it's apparent that play has ceased, the umpire needs to call time, and announce the award of first base to the obstructed runner. If she goes back, she's safe. If she doesn't, we can then entertain a dead ball appeal at first base for leaving early.

Whoa, hang on a second. Why would the umpire award first base to R1 here? She was obstructed heading to second, and never made an attempt to return. With no attempt to return, how can she be awarded the base?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Whoa, hang on a second. Why would the umpire award first base to R1 here? She was obstructed heading to second, and never made an attempt to return. With no attempt to return, how can she be awarded the base?

So you propose what? Umpire, who has signaled OBS, does nothing while everyone waits to see what he's going to rule? Let me ask ... what would YOU do on this exact play? You can't call an out, but you must make an award since you signalled OBS.

On ANY obstruction, when play stops (whether because runners have stopped and the ball's in the circle, or because someone tagged out the OBS's runner before they reached their award base), you announce the award. Granted --- 90% of the time, the award is the base they are standing on... but you should do it anyway - this gives them the opportunity they are granted by rule to correct any previous baserunning duties.

Heck ... to be honest, when we award bases, we don't take into account any transgressions - so awarding SECOND might even be more correct - since it was likely she would (and did) reach 2nd absent the obstruction.

[MD Longhorn]

Also to add... as far as leaving early goes on obstruction, our job is the same whether she left early by 15 seconds (i.e. while the ball was still on the way up) or by half a second (simply left too early).

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So you propose what? Umpire, who has signaled OBS, does nothing while everyone waits to see what he's going to rule? Let me ask ... what would YOU do on this exact play? You can't call an out, but you must make an award since you signalled OBS.

On ANY obstruction, when play stops (whether because runners have stopped and the ball's in the circle, or because someone tagged out the OBS's runner before they reached their award base), you announce the award. Granted --- 90% of the time, the award is the base they are standing on... but you should do it anyway - this gives them the opportunity they are granted by rule to correct any previous baserunning duties.

Heck ... to be honest, when we award bases, we don't take into account any transgressions - so awarding SECOND might even be more correct - since it was likely she would (and did) reach 2nd absent the obstruction.

I'm going to disagree with you here, Mike....

Even though the runner was obstructed, she is still required to run the bases legally and is subject to appeal for any base running infractions. From what you are saying, it sounds as if you believe that the obstruction absolves her of the requirement to tag up on the caught fly ball?

Why does your answer to Sit A (the live ball appeal) depend on the ruleset?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

I'm going to disagree with you here, Mike....

Even though the runner was obstructed, she is still required to run the bases legally and is subject to appeal for any base running infractions. From what you are saying, it sounds as if you believe that the obstruction absolves her of the requirement to tag up on the caught fly ball?

Why does your answer to Sit A (the live ball appeal) depend on the ruleset?

A) ASA, out. FED, if the obstruction occurs while the runner is returning, and not advancing, the runner is safe.

That said, you state that I believe the OBS absolves her... I do not believe that at all. Without inferring my opinion from what I said, which part, exactly, do you disagree with and why?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So you propose what? Umpire, who has signaled OBS, does nothing while everyone waits to see what he's going to rule? Let me ask ... what would YOU do on this exact play? You can't call an out, but you must make an award since you signalled OBS.

On ANY obstruction, when play stops (whether because runners have stopped and the ball's in the circle, or because someone tagged out the OBS's runner before they reached their award base), you announce the award. Granted --- 90% of the time, the award is the base they are standing on... but you should do it anyway - this gives them the opportunity they are granted by rule to correct any previous baserunning duties.

Heck ... to be honest, when we award bases, we don't take into account any transgressions - so awarding SECOND might even be more correct - since it was likely she would (and did) reach 2nd absent the obstruction.

I would leave her at second base. She was obstructed while heading there, and she made it. Her failing to tag up properly is an infraction that, at least in FED ball, provides her protection between the two bases where the obstruction occurred only if the obstruction happened as she was returning to her TOP base.

That said, I'm not sure there's even a need to announce an award, is there? If a runner is obstructed, but the obstruction doesn't affect the outcome of the play, are we still supposed to call time and announce anything?

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That said, I'm not sure there's even a need to announce an award, is there? If a runner is obstructed, but the obstruction doesn't affect the outcome of the play, are we still supposed to call time and announce anything?

I think Mike is correct in that by announcing the OBS and the award the runner know has the right and the responsibility to legally complete her running duties ( retouching the base she left early from ). If the runner does not she can be called out on appeal.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I would leave her at second base. She was obstructed while heading there, and she made it. Her failing to tag up properly is an infraction that, at least in FED ball, provides her protection between the two bases where the obstruction occurred only if the obstruction happened as she was returning to her TOP base.

That said, I'm not sure there's even a need to announce an award, is there? If a runner is obstructed, but the obstruction doesn't affect the outcome of the play, are we still supposed to call time and announce anything?

A lot of umpires do not. And then they DO in this exact situation where the OBS'd runner has duties to complete. The problem there is that you're tipping your hand. I agree it looks odd sometimes to announce an award that has already been achieved by the baserunner. And if you think you can get away with it, that's your call and you're certainly not alone.

But in THIS case - you MUST announce that award because by rule this baserunner has not just the opportunity but the obligation to complete her baserunning duties.

You're probably right that my initial post awarding first was flat wrong... the award is second, like you say.

As goofy as it looks or feels, you kill it when play is obviously done and the defense is not going to play on the runner. You announce the OBS and the award. If they look at you crazy, and the runner does nothing, the defense can then appeal.

[jmkupka]

Please let me recap, for the benefit of, well, me...
The order of events is critical here I assume.

R1 obstructed (after leaving early) on her way to 2nd.
F1 receives ball from F6, who caught liner.
F1, with ball in circle, verbally appeals leaving early.
BU disallows improper appeal.
After action ends, BU calls time, awards OBS R1 2nd (if appropriate), and allows R1 to leave 2nd, go back to 1st, retouch, then return to 2nd.

There's going to be that time frame, right after we call time, where R1 wants to return to retag 1st and F1 wants to dead ball appeal. Whom do we favor?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Please let me recap, for the benefit of, well, me...
The order of events is critical here I assume.

R1 obstructed (after leaving early) on her way to 2nd.
F1 receives ball from F6, who caught liner.
F1, with ball in circle, verbally appeals leaving early.
BU disallows improper appeal.
After action ends, BU calls time, awards OBS R1 2nd (if appropriate), and allows R1 to leave 2nd, go back to 1st, retouch, then return to 2nd.

There's going to be that time frame, right after we call time, where R1 wants to return to retag 1st and F1 wants to dead ball appeal. Whom do we favor?

Right after we call time, we are announcing the OBS award and seeing if the offense does anything. If the defense shouts out their need to appeal during this, they tip off the offense.

Honestly, though ... you are NEVER going to see this. Think of every single failure to tag up situation you've ever seen. 3 coaches, 4 bench players, and 92 parents are screaming to throw to first for the out. That out's going to happen.

If it doesn't, well, shame on the defense for not taking the easy out and waiting for the ball to be killed so they can do the verbal appeal.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

A) ASA, out. FED, if the obstruction occurs while the runner is returning, and not advancing, the runner is safe.

That said, you state that I believe the OBS absolves her... I do not believe that at all. Without inferring my opinion from what I said, which part, exactly, do you disagree with and why?

Once I learned to read, I don't disagree with you at all.....

I completely missed the "verbal" in sit D. I read that as a simple live ball appeal and was disagreeing with you awarding the runner first base. I think we both agree that if the defense makes a proper live ball appeal in that situation, we have an out, even though the runner was obstructed between first and second.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

After action ends, BU calls time, awards OBS R1 2nd (if appropriate), and allows R1 to leave 2nd, go back to 1st, retouch, then return to 2nd.

I'm not sure that's appropriate. Runners are allowed to correct their mistakes in situations where the ball goes out of play (e.g., batted ball goes over the fence, thrown ball goes into the dugout, etc.) I don't think they are allowed to correct them when an umpire makes a routine Time call, even if there was Obstruction.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm not sure that's appropriate. Runners are allowed to correct their mistakes in situations where the ball goes out of play (e.g., batted ball goes over the fence, thrown ball goes into the dugout, etc.) I don't think they are allowed to correct them when an umpire makes a routine Time call, even if there was Obstruction.

Runners should always be allowed to complete their running responsibilities during a dead ball. An umpire should not accept any appeals or announce any awards until the runner receives an opportunity to complete them.