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Quote:

Originally Posted by LIUmp (Post 891584)

To clarify I heard from 3 people who were there who said there was no way either umpire saw both runners. Runners were off the base hard on pitch, had to hold when it was popped up, and were retreating or frozen on touch and also on catch.
Then, I met up with the BU on this play, who is known for being that type of umpire to show what he knows, and that it's more than everyone else. He mentioned how he SAW both runners on the base "at first touch". I thought "how impressive, I wouldn't have immediately seen both of them on the base 'at first touch', maybe one but not both."

So I pressed him on this. "You saw both runners at the very moment it hit the pitcher's glove?"
"well, I saw the runner at second out of the corner of my eye at the very second it hit the pitcher's glove. I wasn't sure if she caught the ball, so I asked my plate ump. He thinks she caught it; he's almost positive she did. The plate ump didn't know the rule about the "first touch" and he wasn't sure about where either runner was at the moment. So I told him I'll explain it to the coaches."

An example of his "officiating": I was PU, he was BU. Batter hits base hit down right field line, just fair. He hesitated on going out, then changed his mind, turned around and tried to cut in the infield and tripped over the lip of the grass on the infield, just in front of where the F4 was. I was PU and covered him as the throw from right field came into 2nd since he was laying flat on his back. Batter was standing on 2nd with a double as the throw came in. He gets up, out of breath, and says " TIME!!! I have obstruction! The first baseman obstructed the runner rounding first, she will get third!" Another example, he called out and ejected a 12U player for her slide at home, saying her leg was "too straight" to be a legal slide. This happened in the 7th inning of a tie game at Nationals. His pregame speech includes the warning, "captains, tell your batters, I like to call strikes. Come up swinging the bat. Also, if you think I'm rushing you, you're right."

I just found this story to be all too common for him to have....I can go 15 years and not get anything like this.

Something about the whole play didn't sit right. So I figured I'd ask here.

Do I know this umpire? These actions are seeming a bit too consistent....

Gotta love it - umpire run around like idiots with the arm up in the air to signal the most obvious of catches that simply do not need to be officiated at all.

Here, the umpires need to step up and make that call and they stand there and do nothing. Even with the SS charging in, the BU should have had an angle on the ball, certainly better than the straight-lined plate umpire. NYSSO would say that the base umpire should come up with a big "THAT'S A CATCH."

It is absolutely delusional to think that both runners were on base at the time the ball hit the pitcher's glove. They obviously didn't get back to the base and there is no way in hell that they are staying on the base after the pitch and after a hit. Ludicrous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 891602)

Do I know this umpire? These actions are seeming a bit too consistent....

You do know him. Too well. And I agree it's ludicrous. Especially considering this umpire.

Always happens to him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 891563)

The runners left their base on the touch. They were most likely well on their way to the next base at the time it was actually caught. There is only a call upon the catch, so I cannot see where there's any reason to send the runners back.

THE KEY POINT - as runners can legally go on first touch it does not matter whether the ball was caught or not. They are legally advancing and there is no re-touch appeal possible.

The appropriate play for the defense was to know the runners could go on first touch. They blew it. Too bad.

This is the part I did not assume. OP simply said they left the base, don't know if they shot off to the next base or hesitated waiting for a call.

I would like to see it, but you are correct, it is quite possible there would be no reason to return the runner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIUmp (Post 891592)

Undereducated? The coaches will yell (and some umpires will call) a strike if the batter does NOT pull her bat back when she holds her bat out for a bunt. They think that's the rule.

Undereducated is on the money.

Well - it IS the rule in NCAA, FED, and LL Softball. Don't be surprised that there's confusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 891602)

Do I know this umpire? These actions are seeming a bit too consistent....

Tell me this isn't the same guy I worked with down in NC summers ago when you and I first met each other?

It sounds like his MO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE (Post 891577)

NYSSO - New York State Softball Officials ASA rules - but different mechanics on a lot of things. If you ever read Jay Miner's REFEREE column, you will encounter a lot of them, as he is our Rules/Mechanics Interpreter.

Delusional? Sounds like someone we know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 891643)

Tell me this isn't the same guy I worked with down in NC summers ago when you and I first met each other?

It sounds like his MO.

The ejection for the slide was a give away. Glad we had 2 UICs assigned to the complex to right the wrong.

Never shuts up and then when he has to step up and say something, mums the word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIUmp (Post 891584)

He mentioned how he SAW both runners on the base "at first touch". I thought "how impressive, I wouldn't have immediately seen both of them on the base 'at first touch', maybe one but not both."

I can see your skepticism based on your previous encounters with that official... however, I would hope that on a play like this, on first touch your first reaction should be a quick glance at the runners. Why? For exactly a situation like this one. Glances don't take long, and as BU, what the heck else are you looking at at this point in the play? Also ... from C, both R1 and R2 are in your primary field of vision. It's your JOB to know whether they were off at that moment, and pay attention to whether they get all the way back. This is not something you should be impressed by or skeptical of (given a normal umpire and not one you're already automatically skeptical of).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 891563)

THE KEY POINT - as runners can legally go on first touch it does not matter whether the ball was caught or not. They are legally advancing and there is no re-touch appeal possible.

That's not true. You need to know that. If the ball is uncaught the runners are out by force.