Double Bag Safe or Out?

[The Stiff]

Runners on first and second, no outs. Soft line drive hit down 1B line. First baseman crosses over bag and makes catch with foot on the orange bag. Is the runner (who was off the base) doubled up at this point, or does the first baseman have to then tag the white bag for the second out?

[MD Longhorn]

What ruleset are you using?

In almost all of them, plays on someone other than the batter, the base is just one big base - for both the fielder and the runner.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What ruleset are you using?

In almost all of them, plays on someone other than the batter, the base is just one big base - for both the fielder and the runner.

And plays on the BR are only when the BR is going to 1st from home, so even the "BR" when returning from an overrun may use the entire double.

The question came up today as to why no double base in NFHS and I could not answer.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

....The question came up today as to why no double base in NFHS and I could not answer.

It's a optional state association adoption.

I have heard (unofficially) it's because NFHS does not want to make it mandatory and cause schools to incur an additional cost to put it on their fields.

Not very consistent with some other rule changes in other sports that necessitate some type of cost to upgrade or change existing facilities.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

It's a optional state association adoption.

I have heard (unofficially) it's because NFHS does not want to make it mandatory and cause schools to incur an additional cost to put it on their fields.

Not very consistent with some other rule changes in other sports that necessitate some type of cost to upgrade or change existing facilities.

No reason for that to surprise you; they actually made the statement that they wouldn't mandate chin straps for cost reasons (at about $1.29 each) back when it was proposed.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

And plays on the BR are only when the BR is going to 1st from home, so even the "BR" when returning from an overrun may use the entire double.

The question came up today as to why no double base in NFHS and I could not answer.

Then you have not been listening. NFHS does allow for a double base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then you have not been listening. NFHS does allow for a double base.

I know allowed, but not "mandatory" and why States decide not to adopt.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I know allowed, but not "mandatory" and why States decide not to adopt.

No NFHS rule is mandatory. NFHS rules are merely suggestions and have only the teeth the local HS association afford them.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What ruleset are you using?

In almost all of them, plays on someone other than the batter, the base is just one big base - for both the fielder and the runner.

I find it a bit unsettling that the rule sets allow the defense to take advantage of the orange bag in situations like this.

The purpose of the DFB is to enhance safety on the single play of when a throw is going to first to retire the BR going there from home. To treat it as "one big base" afterward for all other situations really provides the runner no benefit, but gives the defense an edge in plays that I feel they shouldn't have.

Suppose in the OP, F3 makes a diving catch of the line drive about 10 feet or so in foul territory while R2 is a few steps off the bag. F3 is able to dive back and tag the far edge of the orange bag with the ball in her mitt a split second before R2 can reach the opposite edge of the white bag. R2 would be out because F3 had the advantage of not needing to stretch 15 more inches.

That said, are you sure the double first is treated as one on these type plays? I just checked the ASA rule book, and this was a brand new add to rule 8-2-M-7. But I don't see an equivalent ruling in the FED book.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I find it a bit unsettling that the rule sets allow the defense to take advantage of the orange bag in situations like this.

The purpose of the DFB is to enhance safety on the single play of when a throw is going to first to retire the BR going there from home.

You want safety? Get rid of the double base and teach the players how to play the position. The double base is a result of "dumping" hitters at 1B and/or treating F3 as a non-skilled posItion. IOW, it is a result of lazy/bad coaching skills.

To treat it as "one big base" afterward for all other situations really provides the runner no benefit, but gives the defense an edge in plays that I feel they shouldn't have.

Why should the runner have a benefit? That isn't the purpose of the base. However, it actually does give a smart runner a benefit as if properly used, gives them the ability to get a running start off of 1st base.

Suppose in the OP, F3 makes a diving catch of the line drive about 10 feet or so in foul territory while R2 is a few steps off the bag. F3 is able to dive back and tag the far edge of the orange bag with the ball in her mitt a split second before R2 can reach the opposite edge of the white bag. R2 would be out because F3 had the advantage of not needing to stretch 15 more inches.

If R2 doesn't want to be put out, R2 should have been off the base.

Let's play with math. R2 has an advantage of being 15" closer to 2B from the line, why shouldn't the defense enjoy the same? The defense has to cover the full distance from foul line to foul line, yet the runners are given an allowance to cut off a little over 40" off the diamond

That said, are you sure the double first is treated as one on these type plays? I just checked the ASA rule book, and this was a brand new add to rule 8-2-M-7. But I don't see an equivalent ruling in the FED book.

No, it was not a brand new rule. It was a clarification added because (and this is for you, Topper ), too many people tried to overthink the wording and had a difficult time understanding that the rule change effective in 2006, yes, 2006 opened up the entire base for access to the offense and defense for any play not coming from fair territory on the BR only.

The NFHS addresses this in 8.10.3

[The Stiff]

This was in a high school game. I coach varsity high school softball. I also coach ASA in the summer. Is the rule the same in ASA?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by The Stiff

This was in a high school game. I coach varsity high school softball. I also coach ASA in the summer. Is the rule the same in ASA?

Yes

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by The Stiff

Runners on first and second, no outs. Soft line drive hit down 1B line. First baseman crosses over bag and makes catch with foot on the orange bag. Is the runner (who was off the base) doubled up at this point, or does the first baseman have to then tag the white bag for the second out?

If the umpire knew the intent of F3 was to double up the runner for leaving the base early, the runner should be declared out.

If not and umpire considers the touch of the base accidental, at that point in time, no call other than out on the catch and the play is still unfolding.