Touch of Second on Bunt

[Manny A]

Had this play in a JUCO game, and wanted to get your take.

Two-man crew, with me on bases. R1 on first. Batter bunts a few feet up the first base line. F2 picks up the ball, and throws out the BR on a banger. R1, in the meantime, is heading for third, and the throw from F4 who was covering first is too late.

As I move over to the left side of the infield, I'm thinking, "How the heck did R1 make it to third safely on that?" Then it dawned on me that I had no clue whether or not R1 touched second. She could have rounded second a few feet in front of the bag, for all I knew.

So I talked to my partner about it between innings, and he said he had trailed the BR looking for a lane violation, and then hightailed it over to third to take the call there. Like me, he never saw R1 at second base.

I believe the touch of second is the BU's responsibility, but under those circumstances, there was no way I could watch. If I had turned my head to see R1, the play at first would have exploded on me as I turned back towards that bag. The PU had a better shot at looking there from his position.

Is this a situation where we should deviate from the norm, and cover it through a good pre-game?

[RKBUmp]

Local Juco coach teaches his players to purposely cut bases in situations just like you have described because there are not enough eyes on the field to watch everything. Technically yes, the touch of second is probably the BU responsibility, but in a sac bunt situation the play is most likely going to be at 1st, which is also the BU responsibility. There is just no way to watch the play developing, the batter/runner, the base runner touch of 2nd and a play at 1st all at the same time.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

There is just no way to watch the play developing, the batter/runner, the base runner touch of 2nd and a play at 1st all at the same time.

That is what I call one of the black holes of the 2 umpire system.

[MD Longhorn]

One perfect reason JUCO should pay for a 3rd umpire...

BU's call - but as PU, unless the timing of the throw prohibits me doing so, I'm glancing over to 2nd as R1 rounds, knowing this is ALWAYS a hole in 2-man coverage. (That said, very often the timing of the throw DOES prohibit you from glancing over).

BU should have this in the back of his head as well though. Positioning sucks for making that glance, but if PU's timing is wrong for this it's very possible BU's is not, as their primary will be the play at the base - if the throw is about to happen, you can sometimes look over quickly.

Just know it's a hole, and both of you do your best to check it if possible.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Local Juco coach teaches his players to purposely cut bases in situations just like you have described because there are not enough eyes on the field to watch everything. Technically yes, the touch of second is probably the BU responsibility, but in a sac bunt situation the play is most likely going to be at 1st, which is also the BU responsibility. There is just no way to watch the play developing, the batter/runner, the base runner touch of 2nd and a play at 1st all at the same time.

RKB beat me to it.....

We have had other (former) coaches in this JUCO league teach this same tactic. Our umpire staff is aware of it and we usually try to have the PU take a quick look on this play, because we know it's coming.

We (the umpires) have seen it several times, but, in at least the games that I have done, the other team doesn't catch it and doesn't appeal.

One game I was working with the team in question, I was PU, player hits an easy double in the gap, but cuts her turn at first short and does not touch the base. The other team sees it and appeals, my BU partner calls the out. Here comes coach...."What was that call? How did you see that?, blah, blah, blah....." Partner waits for him to finish, then tells him, "Coach, you have had your players do that for years and getting away with it...you get called on it once and you're out here complaining to me?????" That ended the conversation pretty quick.

I was standing behind the plate try to contain my laughter.....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Had this play in a JUCO game, and wanted to get your take.

Two-man crew, with me on bases. R1 on first. Batter bunts a few feet up the first base line. F2 picks up the ball, and throws out the BR on a banger. R1, in the meantime, is heading for third, and the throw from F4 who was covering first is too late.

As I move over to the left side of the infield, I'm thinking, "How the heck did R1 make it to third safely on that?" Then it dawned on me that I had no clue whether or not R1 touched second. She could have rounded second a few feet in front of the bag, for all I knew.

So I talked to my partner about it between innings, and he said he had trailed the BR looking for a lane violation, and then hightailed it over to third to take the call there. Like me, he never saw R1 at second base.

I believe the touch of second is the BU's responsibility, but under those circumstances, there was no way I could watch. If I had turned my head to see R1, the play at first would have exploded on me as I turned back towards that bag. The PU had a better shot at looking there from his position.

Is this a situation where we should deviate from the norm, and cover it through a good pre-game?

Has anyone ever noticed Manny has a shitload of games with a lot of issues and questions?

Remind me not to ever umpire in NVa.

Meanwhile, this is one reason why I believe people place too much emphasis on trailing the BR with runners on base.

The "trail" is for an extra set of eyes just for an "in case" type of event. While I support the "trail", I do not support the point that there is a responsibility for the PU to watch the play at 1B if there is a need for him/her to be watching elsewhere. That runner should belong to the PU. AND it is a black hole in the mechanics that no one seems to want to address. It was raised last year when the mechanics talked about the lead runner, the last runner, but didn't say much about those in between.

As a PU, I'm hanging back a little and I will try to watch both runners and odds are, I at least be able to tell if the R was near 2B and not taking a short cut.

[PATRICK]

Coach, that's a $200 call!

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

Coach, that's a $200 call!

Damn, $200 for one more umpire?? I want to work in your association!!

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Damn, $200 for one more umpire?? I want to work in your association!!

Ok, local JuCo is $150, but DIII is over $200

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Has anyone ever noticed Manny has a shitload of games with a lot of issues and questions?

Remind me not to ever umpire in NVa.

Can't help it, IM. I'm the guy who gets in the wrong line at the toll booth on the highway, who has the Metro train doors close on his face when he's late for a Pentagon meeting, who's left his keys on his desk at work and realized it after riding the Metro all the way to the station where he parked his Jeep, etc. etc.

If something weird is going to happen on a softball field, you can rest assured that I will be working that game.

[HugoTafurst]

BTW, I have asked this same coverage question in regards to possible obstruction at 2nd base a couple of years ago.

Since have gone with Irish's thought process (that is PU is aware of action at 2nd base - if he catches it, great) and it is part of a pre-game.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

BTW, I have asked this same coverage question in regards to possible obstruction at 2nd base a couple of years ago.

Since have gone with Irish's thought process (that is PU is aware of action at 2nd base - if he catches it, great) and it is part of a pre-game.

Same for obstruction at 3B when R1 advances from 2B on an infield ground ball that goes to F3. BU and PU are watching the play at 1B and F5 is standing in R1's way because she knows no one is watching.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Same for obstruction at 3B when R1 advances from 2B on an infield ground ball that goes to F3. BU and PU are watching the play at 1B and F5 is standing in R1's way because she knows no one is watching.

The PU should have a much better shot of seeing an infraction at 3B than seeing a missed bag or OBS at 2B. A lead runner going to 3B is definitely the PU's responsibility, so he/she should sacrifice watching the play at 1B. Also, the PU wouldn't trail the BR at all in this situation like he/she is instructed to do in the OP play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Same for obstruction at 3B when R1 advances from 2B on an infield ground ball that goes to F3. BU and PU are watching the play at 1B and F5 is standing in R1's way because she knows no one is watching.

Disagree. If the PU is watching the play at 1B and not watching for any potential issues with the runner approaching, touching and/or rounding 3B, the PU is not doing their job.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Disagree. If the PU is watching the play at 1B and not watching for any potential issues with the runner approaching, touching and/or rounding 3B, the PU is not doing their job.

^This. PU has secondary responsibilities at 1B when the play is going there but the primary responsibilities are the lead runner. PU is going to have a much narrower field of vision to see what's happening at 1B and 2B than BU trying to see both.