Situation: bases loaded. batter hits ball back to pitcher. pitcher throws home to force out R3. catcher throws high to 1B and batter-runner is safe at first. R2 decides to run home. R3 that was forced out already is still in the field of play between 3B and HP. R2 runs into R3, who again is already out, and they both fall to the ground. R2 gets up and slides under the tag and he is safe. The umpire didn't see the 2 guys collide. Question is, should R2 be out also for running into R3? Would R3 who was forced out be considered a coach now since he was forced out or is he still a runner since the play is still going on??

Okay, so we have bases loaded, R1 is forced out at the plate. All other play irrelevant. R2 collides with one of his teammates in an effort to score.

As long as that teammate did nothing to aid R2 to their feet or either direction, you have nothing. If the player pushes, shoves or lifts R2 in any manner, you have assisting a runner by someone not permitted, R2 is out.

If R3 did not interfer with F2's attempt at putting R2 out and did
not in anyway assist R2, then in my opinion, R2 would not be out
for merely running into his/her own player. However, R3 should
have vacated the action area especially with the time involved
in throwing from HP to 1B and back. If at anytime PU thought
that R3 interferred with the play, then yes, you have an out on
R2 as well.

What was the ruling on the play?

glen

HU didn't see the collision even though R3 was on the ground for 2 minutes after the collison happened and play ended. Game was out of reach for teh team in the field anyways and maybe thats why the HU didn't turn as quickly back to see the play or he just assumed the R2 was going to stay at 3B, not sure.

That's a different question.

Cannot call what one didn't see. R1 may be down for the count, but R2 scores.

Direct question: I agree with Mike - if the umpire did not see it, then he can't call it. Play happens just as if the players did not collide (since "officially" they didn't).

Indirect question: What if the umpire <u>had</u> seen it?

Well, you can't call obstruction on the offense, so unless the retired runner assisted the runner or got in the way of the defensive play, you've got nothing.

Now I see this in a different light. Let's say the umpire did see the play. Now there is a call to make - or not make. I dont't think the umpire is to judge the "intent" of the offensive player who was run into. If a player is on the field of play, then is that player considered a coach ???
Take the case of a third base coach. Any contact made between the coach and the runner - runner is out. "Intent" is not an option.

Therefore, if a runner runs into another offensive player - runner is out.

That is my two cents. Please advise.

Jeff

Jeff,
Read carefully what Mike said. Running into a coach or retired/scored runner does not constitute interference in & of itself. If the coach or retired/scored runner does not assist the "live" runner, there is no interference - and there is not impact on the fielder.

Steve M

Jeff,

Two things...

First, R1 does not morph into being a coach. R1 is a retired runner.

Second, speaking ASA, your statement, is incorrect. "Contact" is not what is illegal. "Assistance" is. The rule reads as follows:"anyone other than another runner" includes a retired runner. It does not have to be a coach. "Physially assists" can be things like grabbing the runner to hold them on base, pushing the runner to get them moving, grabbing the runner's hand to pull him to his feet, etc. Getting in the way of a runner gunning for home is unlikely to be considered "assisting."

By the previous posts, I am to conlcude that this is a judgement call on the umpire to determine intent of a third base coach, runner or retired runner if they were trying to aid the runner.

So is this a true statement - Incidental contact with a third base does not necessarily put a runner out, unless the coach "assists" that runner in the umpire's judgement.

Jeff

It is not illegal for one runner to assist another runner.

Correct, but remember, assistance from a coach can take many forms - trying to get the runner to pay attention, trying to get the runner to hold up, trying to get the runner to continue, etc. Avoiding all contact is the best policy for the coach, but if a runner has a clear shot to home, and running wide collides with the coach, that would not be assistance by the coach. After the collision, if the coach helps the runner get to his feet, or grabs the runner to keep him at 3rd, etc., then that would be assistance. And you are correct, it is a judgment call.

2 MINUTES! You've got to be exagerating a little here.

Did anybody check the runner to see if he was dead? :D

I could easily see two separate at-bats, and subsequent plays, taking place during two minutes. Did any other runners trip over him? He must have been lying in foul territory - no worry about the batted ball hitting him.

In all seriousness, I would assume that the first runner in to home (called out on the force) was likely picking up the bat to get it out of the way for the next runner... collision occurred. There is no subversion here - incidental contact; play continues.

As the plate ump, when I think there is going to be a play at home, I always try to take the ONE second to kick the bat towards the dugout. If I don't get it on the first attempt, I leave it alone and might stand close to it and say to the runner "watch out for the bat." as he goes by. You can't spend time looking away and reaching for the bat - a quick flick of the foot is the greatest effort I will make.

We have been taught to leave the bat alone to avoid three risks:
- hurting yourself with it
- injury (spelled l a w s u i t) to a player in the way
- injury (spelled l a w s u i t) to another player because of where it ended up

I think we tend to overestimate the lawsuit angle. But, the only thing I do with bats lying on the ground is try to avoid tripping over them! http://mindscraps.com/s/cwm/3dlil/cool.gif

I had just joined a new umpiring organization and had a "close" play at third with a the runner sliding and the ball coming in. The ball however went through the 3B's legs and to the fence. The coach turned and avoided the ball and the fielder. The runner popped to his feet, pushed the coach in the back to get him out of his way and ran home to score. I did not make a call.

(The defense coach went ballistic and I eventually had to eject. I later learned that this coach was also a member of this new umpire organization that I joined, obviously not calling in this league where he coached.)

This year, I had a coach that would stand approximately 3 feet past the base giving the "hands-up" stop sign. He was very close and right in the base path. From the way he stands and his motionless posture, I'm imagining that he thinks he is not physically assisting. Even though the coach is doing nothing, if a player touches him in this situation, I've got an out for physical assistance.

I also had a deaf girl in Little League that was on first and did not know to run after a fly ball was missed. (It's LL; that stuff happens.) Her first base coach, another child, was trying to get her attention to tell her to run. She started to tap the runner's shoulder but did not. When I relayed this story to my brother, a non-umpire, I explained the predicament I was in of having to call the ("deaf") runner out should the coach have tapped her shoulder to get her attention. My brother asked if I would have called her out and I said yes. After calling me heartless, he asked if I would have called her out if the coach had thrown a pebble or dirt at her to get her attention. I avoided the question.

The rule says nothing about a runner assisting a coach! ;) I guess, by logical extension, you should call the coach OUT - which in a manner of speaking, you did! :D (yeah, I know, the other coach...)

A bit of preventative umpiring would put this guy back in the coach's box. Otherwise, I would agree with the call. Would anyone make the call <u>without</u> contact? Is getting in the way of a runner (in the runner's basepath) "physically assisting?" Hmmm... seems like it would be a supportable call.

And, I'm avoiding a response! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/ostr.gif

Not in the manner described above, but I have seen it. It took a while to set in and I warned the coach that if it happened again, I would rule the runner out.

Co-rec game. As a female was rounding third, the coach intentionally stepped into the basepath with his back to the runner. She stopped on a dime and I didn't pick-up on it until a few moments after the play was over. In effect, he used his body to block a runner who was bent on proceeding.

However, to call this, I would really have to be convinced the coach was intentional in his/her action and it is going to be a helluva "sell" call.