Projected Sub...
 

At our HS meeting last night the question came up about projected subs.

The example used is as follows, Team batting wants to sub #25 in for #30.

#30 isn't due to bat until 5th in the inning. We had a blue make a somewhat reasonable argument that we shouldn't accept that substitution until it was #30's turn at bat. His reasoning was that at that point it's a projected sub.

I looked through the rule book and couldn't find anything to clarify.

Any thoughts?

Sub
 

Do you allow them to tell you that the sub they are entering now will be re-entered for before the re-entry actually occurs? I don't allow this mostly because I don't want to forget. I don't think you should do anything until the sub is actually entering the game.

Look at rule 3-3-3 on page 32 of this year's rule book:

"The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team's head coach. Projected substitutions are not permitted. If there is no announcement..."

The italicized portion is a new change to this year's book.

But
 

If the coach comes up and says I want to sub #25 for #30, would you not reach in your ball bag, pull out your line up card, and make the substitution ?

I agree the coach stating the reentry would be a projected sub. The example you used seems to be an apple to oranges kind of deal.

It's clearly projected until the player comes to the plate. 3-3-3 deal with projected substitutes.

No. I would reach into my ball bag, pull out my lineup card, notice that he/she is trying to give me a projected substitute, and tell him/her, "Sorry, coach, but you can't give me a sub until the time she actually enters the game," and then put my lineup card back in my bag.

Here's the dilemma. Let's say you accept the substitution, and enter #25 in #30's batting position. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double, and the coach doesn't have anybody on the bench to bring in for #15.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

There are other ways a coach can manipulate things with projected substitutes. That said, I'll write down the change and remind the coach that the player isn't in the game until they report to me at the plate (or the coach reports it to me at that time).

I will not accept the "25 is batting for 30, then 30 will re-enter on defense" sub.

I will however, accept the coach that comes out at the beginning of the inning and tells me that "13 will bat for 17, 5 will bat for 7, and 14 will bat for 16."

I understand that these are considered projected subs, and I tell the coach that once I record those, the subs are in the game and if there is a change made before that player comes to bat, I will apply the substitution rules.

Since this is generally done late in a game that is pretty much decided, I think it saves time and keeps the game moving as opposed to taking and recording the subs one at a time. May not be exactly by the book, but that is what I do.

Not me. I won't write it down because chances are the coach will forget to let me know when the player actually enters, the player doesn't say anything either, and then I'll forget to inform the opposing coach when the player comes in. And then the opposing coach will argue for a batting out of order and/or an unreported sub violation.

I'd rather keep it clean. I've never had a problem with a coach that I've told, "I can't take that substitution now. Come back when she actually enters."

See, there's no rules basis for putting those subs in the game at that point.

(And I'm assuming the projected sub rule is the same in NFHS softball as it is in baseball. I tend to follow the board using the new posts link and I missed that this was a softball thread. Sorry.)

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

You are certainly within your rights to do that. I'm just telling you what I'd do (in a baseball game -- that's all I work). I remember the position and will pull the card out and report it when the player comes to the plate. Just saves a little time -- but I can get why others wouldn't want to do it.

"Coach, #25 is already in the game."

By rule, she's not. Projected substitutes are not allowed.

It's not only a lineup card management disaster, it's a case where an umpire puts a coach at a disadvantage by doing something against the rules.

Take my scenario that I mentioned before. Once again, the coach wants to enter #25 in #30's batting position (fifth batter in the inning), and you put that on the card. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double.

So the coach comes out and says, "Remember that I wanted to enter #25 in for #30, Blue? Let's forget that since #30's batting order slot hasn't come up yet, and I'll put #25 in for #15 at second base." You cannot use the substitution rules and tell the coach, "Sorry, but #25 officially subbed for #30, so she can't re-enter for anyone else." Why not? Because you weren't supposed to accept the change in the first place. You're using a rule you violated to put the coach into a bind.

I think the time you save accepting projected subs (which isn't that much time if you know how to keep a lineup card and announce subs) isn't worth the headache you could get into. But that's just me. YMMV

Ok I guess I must be a little slow, or what am I missing here? I don't see the OP as a projected sub. As I read 3-3-3 the player is in the game as soon as the plate umpire records it on the lineup card and then they are required to report it to the other team. Now if there is no announcement (coach or player does not tell me) then they are in the game once one of a-e happens. Points a-e tells us when we can enforce the unreported sub rules, it is not a requirement for them to be in the game if they were reported. A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

ART. 3 . . . The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card
and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected
substitutions are not permitted. Should there be no announcement of substitutions,
a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner she has replaced.
b. a pitcher takes her place on the pitcher's plate.
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder she has
replaced.
d. a batter takes her place in the batter's box.
e. and, in each of the above situations, when the ball is declared live by the
plate umpire.

If they are in the field... yes. If they are batting, absolutely not - unless 30 is coming up to bat.

That said ... if the sitch is like the OP, I will notice she's 5th when he tells me. I won't notate it right then, but when the 5th batter comes up and it's 30 (and not 25), I'm not going to make him come back out and tell me again. It is at THIS point that I would inform the other team's coach (and usually the scorekeeper too).

If it turns out they only bat 3 or 4 that inning - I'll inform the coach that the substitution has actually not taken place yet and ask if he still wants it when they go on defense.

I agree. Me neither.

Do what you must, and I agree with moving the game along - but if 17, 7, or 16's batting slot don't come up in that inning, the substitution DID NOT happen. Your instruction to the coach that these subs are official and if anything varies you'll use reentry rules is just wrong. In fact, until those players batting slots come up and the new player is getting ready to bat, coach could still (completely legally) change his mind and NOT make that substitution - with no penalty.

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

+1

I have always been taught projected means dealing with more than one action on the same substitute. As Andy referred to, coach wants to sub 30 for 15 at bat, but tells you he also wants 15 reentered on defense.

Has ASA ever issued a clarification of what they consider as being projected? Did a search through the NCAA book and they dont refer to them as projected substutions, the only reference they make is to "projected re-entries".

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

Would you accept this defensive change between innings: "Hey Blue, #10 who is in my bullpen right now is going to come in and pitch to the third batter this inning." If you accept future batting order changes in the same half-inning, then why wouldn't you accept future defensive changes in the same half-inning?

I agree with this completely. On defense, the sub happens immediately - they go to their position and the person they are replacing leaves. On offense, anyone but the batter who is about to enter the box is not really substituted for until that slot comes up to bat.

Everything else is a future substitution... a projected sub.

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

Apples and oranges. More like apples and kumquats, actually.

What you wouldn't allow is the coach to come up and say, "I'm going to bat #25 for the number 3 hitter" before the game started.

I was dinged in a HS evaluation a couple of years ago for accepting a projected sub. She was due to bat second that inning, and ultimately did.

After the game I was told of my mistake. That was also the game that I learned to take the home team's lineup first. I had been taking visitors first - figured they batted first so I'd take their lineup first. Wrong.

Perhaps. But then, there's nothing against the rules concerning projected starters. :p

Nope. All changes to the starting lineup once it becomes official is considered a substitution. But by the strict wording in the rules, the plate umpire shouldn't be accepting visiting team changes to the starting lineup until the substitute actually comes to bat for the starter.

That said, do we go ahead and accept them at the plate conference? Yeah, sure, since everybody's there making the changes to their respective cards. But again, unless that substitute happens to be the leadoff batter of the game, the change shouldn't be accepted.

But we do don't we? If a coach is using the DP/Flex we will allow the Flex to bat for the DP to be reported at the plate conference correct?? There was some clarification on this matter last year I believe. So if we do this how is that any different???

My previous reply was based on NFHS rules. I guess ASA makes this much more clear. Their rule 4-6-B spells it out.
B. A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the
plate umpire. The player does not violate the unreported substituted rule until
a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play has been made. The use of an unreported
substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is
in the game.

But look at 4-6-A, Dave. I don't have a recent version of the rulebook here at work. I have an electronic version of the 2008 book. And in 4-6-A, it says [my emphasis in bold]:

"The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer."

So while it doesn't specifically say projected substitutes are not allowed, it does say when the manager or team rep should tell the plate ump. I'm assuming the latest rule has not changed in its intent.

To answer your previous question about DP/Flex, I don't know what was put out under some previous clarification. But to me, if the coach announces at the plate conference that his Flex is going to bat for his DP, the umpire shouldn't take that announcement, by rule, until the DP is due to bat.

I guess we are just seeing two different things here. I agree A still says what you quoted. However, I read that simply as "When the coach wants the player to enter the game they tell the plate umpire (4-6-A) Once that is done they are officially in the game (4-6-B)." I don't read or see anything else there. Tell me when you want them in the game and it's done they are in the game at that point.

Then this is no longer a "projected" sub.

So, it's your position that when the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I want substitute Suzie to bat for starter Stacey when Stacey comes up this inning," Suzie is now officially in the game. And you're going to announce that to the opposing coach and the official scorer.

But then Suzie, who was due to bat seventh in the inning, never comes anywhere near the plate. So when the coach says, "Blue, I'm putting Stacey back on the field, and since Suzie never batted for her, it's not a re-entry, right?" you're going to tell the coach that Suzie WAS in the game, even though she never got an official appearance, and that Stacey burned her one re-entry. Is that correct?

Well, I'll never let that happen.

Honestly - both of these viewpoints can be right. Given that ASA didn't bother to define "projected sub" - going back and forth is rather worthless.

As long as we are self-consistent during a game, either way should not have problems.

Method A - To my mind, a person doesn't enter the game until she actually begins to participate and the person she's replacing is no longer participating. On defense, this is easy and we don't seem to have any disagreement. On offense, TO ME, that means - when they are about to come to bat. If this is your viewpoint, and you A) don't write anything down until it becomes official and B) notify the opposing coach and the scorekeeper of the change at this moment (and not earlier), you will not run into problems.

Method B - Conversely - if you go with Dave's way (which is also Irish's way from a previous thread), and accept any changes to the batting lineup in advance of the inning started, then as long as you A) write them ALL down when the coach gives them to you, B) inform the opposing coach and scorekeeper of ALL the changes when you write them down ... then again, you will not run into any problems. (Probably should inform the coach making the changes that they are official as of that moment too, just in case the below cases happen)

The only real difference lies in the two cases mentioned above:
1) Coach says Suzie is coming in for Sally to bat, but Sally's AB never comes - with method A, Suzie has still not entered the game, and Sally has not left... with method B, Suzie's already in the game, and Sally is not.
2) Coach says Suzie is coming in for Sally (batting later than Beth), but Beth gets injured during her at bat and coach now wants to put in Suzie for Beth... method A - no problem, coach; method B - No coach, Suzie's already in the game.

I think you run into no coaching issues in either of those cases with Method A - and you could with Method B. But again, as long as we are self-consistent and communicating with the coaches, we can justify (by rule) either method.

And if I'm the PU, the only way that happens is when the coach gives me the change(s), I confirm the change with him, record it on my lineup card, inform the official scorer and the opposing team.

"I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning"...
"Ok Coach, I'll take the change from you when your ready to send her up to hit."
Ditto for a defensive change(s).
And then the coach and I will do the change.


I've got too many other things on my mind to

Are you saying that if OC tells you 23 for 24 and 25 for 26 and 24 bats but 26 doesn't, then 26 goes out on defense that you will say she's unreported?

I've got too many other things on my mind than to care when she's due up. Coach gives me subs, I record and announce.

I just found this. I know OP isn't NCAA, but here's their rule.

8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead.

8.5.1.2 A coach of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Projected re-entries are not allowed.

As this issue has also been discussed in the thread, I'll add it to your two cites:
8.5.1.8 Substitutes shall be considered officially in the game when the substitution is reported to and accepted by the plate umpire, recorded on the official lineup card and announced to the opposing coach, scorekeepers, the official scorer and the public-address announcer.

Ties up all the loose ends.

Maybe it is me, but three pages on this subject is a little disturbing.

Yeah, I'm having the same thought.

People, a coach can make a substitution, and multiple substitutions, at any time on both defense and offense. When the change is accepted (and fully processed, recorded, and announced), the substitution has happened. If the coach chooses to replace all 9 players on offense at one time, you accept 9 substitutions. Now. They are entered now. If the coach wants to change that later, that is a re-entry, or another substitution. Then; and he has to live with the substitutions previously made. The player being replaced is replaced when reported and recorded, and it has NOTHING to do with which player is at bat.

Projected in ASA, NFHS, and NCAA means 25 for 30, and I will re-enter 30 on defense at the end of the inning. You accept 25 for 30, and you tell the coach he must re-enter 30 when 30 is being re-entered, not now. If coach tells you 25 for 30, 18 for 23, and 5 for 12, you make three substitutions; now. You do not have the right to refuse to allow a coach to make a legal substitution now, even if the coach may later regret it. That part is his problem.

Whomever told you accepting multiple substitutions on offense is projeected, that you can only accept changes on the current batter, is completely wrong. The NCAA rule saying "8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead." NFHS 3-3-2 also states "A substitute may replace any player when the ball is dead or time has been called." ASA RS#51 adds "A substitute is considered in the game when reported to the plate umpire"; only unreported subs need to actually participate to be considered officially in the game.

So let me get this straight. I mentioned this in a previous post.

Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

I have to take that substitution and announce it to the opposing coach?

That's a perfect example of a projected substitution.

The umpire's response to the coach should be: "Coach, give me the change when it happens."

WHEN the change is given to you.

A substitution takes place when it is provided to the umpire, not when a particular scenario occurs or any other particular point in the game arrives. This way, when the coach changes his/her mind because the anticipated scenario did not occur, there is no excuse of forgetting to rectify the situation.

Like in football where they inform the official that as xx:xx left on the clock, they are going to request a time out. However, they must still inform the official of the request AT THE TIME it occurs.

Coach wants to give you a heads up on a possible change, that is fine, but that is not the change.

If all this happens when I'm umpiring, then I'm only taking the sub when it happens, and I'm telling him so. I am not taking 25 for 26 at that moment - and coach will know that.

Well ... it was 3 pages the last time you and AtlSteve argued about this (2010).

You quote a bunch of non ASA rules after this... which are irrelevant. I can quote other orgs of baseball and softball that say the opposite - which are equally as irrelevant.

You can tell us here, on the internet where everything is true, that accepting multiple substitutions on offense should be allowed... but until ASA bothers defining "projected substitutions", or gets specific about when substitutions are official - it's just words.

I know that you, and Mike, are generally in the room when this stuff is discussed. So I believe you if you say that is the intent of ASA --- but given that this is different from many other rulesets (both BB and SB), it needs to be codified.

So is "15 will bat for 44 when she comes up", imho.

This is COMPLETELY at odds with the notion you and Atl are saying about making a substitution for the 5th batter in the lineup.

I would agree. However, "15 for 44" is NOT.

It is obvious to me that any reported substitution is taken as reported, except for non-immediate-possibility changes. Substitutions are a function of the lineup, not physical action or presence.

Those saying that a sub has to physically perform when reported are wrong.
Thank you, IM, AUS, & Patrick for doing the typing of the correct approach.

How so?

+1000

Steve, I'm teaching ASA 4 next week, may I copy & distribute this, along with

Manny, this one as a projected:
"Defensive coach comes to me between innings while he has #5 throwing her five warm-ups from the circle. He says, "Blue, I want to enter #10 who is over there in my bullpen as pitcher for #5 this inning. She'll start pitching when their #44 comes up."

Which part of my quote above is non ASA, nonspecific or unclear? I could also add 4-6.B; "A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the plate umpire." But you should have known that.

A reported sub is in the game when reported; even if that batting position isn't currently up. That isn't projected; the change is made now. An unreported sub is in the game when they actually participate.

To respond accurately AND completely to that you coach, you need to say "Coach, if I accept that change as reported now, you must enter that player now, and #5 has been removed; now. If that is your intent, I can accept that change. However, if you want #5 to stay in the game until #44 comes up, then you need to hold this change and report it when you want that to happen."

That is obviously different from reporting an offensive change, where I am making the change now for a position in my batting order, which can and must be executed when reported. The coach has every right to make that change NOW, and you have no basis to say he has to report it again later.

If I were that coach, I would make a point of making sure others witnessed me reporting it when I choose to, and would absolutely refuse to re-report it to you later. And then absolutely defy you to consider it an unreported sub. You lose that protest; the rule says that player is in the game when I report it to you. You can only refuse to accept illegal substitutions; and this isn't. There is absolute rules support for my position (and have quoted ASA, NFHS, and NCAA softball cites), and absolutely none for yours.

You can choose to say "projected" isn't defined; but you cannot ignore what IS specifically stated.

As far as I am concerned, anything I type and post is freely available to anyone that reads it. There is, to my knowledge, no ownership of open messageboard posts; if there is in some jurisdiction, I consider and openly release anything I post as public domain/freeware/whatever.

That goes against everything Mike and Steve just posted.

I disagree, 15 for 44 is not projected, it is available right now. Now say then 44 will reenter is projected.

No it doesn't.

You take a sub when it happens. If the try to project, you tell them to come back with it when they want it to occur.

It is real simple. If you give me a change, I stop and make that change immediately. I don't wave or smile or nod, I stop the game, take my line-up card and make the change then and there. No multiple scenarios, what ifs or conditions. If you tell me 15 for 44, that change is effective the moment I write it down.

Why? Because if there is any reason for the game to stop at that point or I, as the plate umpire, cannot continue, that line-up card IS the official line up for both teams. There is no, "but I told him....." or "that isn't what I really wanted to do.." bull****. A UIC should be able to come to the field at any time during the game, take your line-up card and compare them to the scorebook and they should be identical.

That will not happen if the umpire's line-up card is not current and it cannot be current if the umpire accepts changes that have no yet taken place. Want to not see Sunday in a NC, do not have a current line-up card when there is a BOO protest.

I'm confused, will re-read later. :confused:

Yes, it does. MD disagrees with Mike and Steve. His position is that you cannot make a substitution for a player unless that player is going to play in the game at that moment. I couldn't quite explain to you why he thinks it's this way.

Well, we were not arguing (with each other). And as is now, we were on the same page. BTW, it was only 2 pages

As I stated three years ago, you maintain the line-up and only the line-up. You don't worry about anything other than being a body in a slot in the batting order.

Do not construe that to mean that I believe the other rules (DP/Flex, re-entry, etc.) do not apply. They do, but for the purpose of making a change, when you get it, you write it down and it is effective. You do not worry about WHEN or WHERE they are going into the field or bat, they are in the game when you take the change.

Absolutely correct.

This plays exactly into one of my peeves: we make/take substitutions, that's it. However, we have fostered a culture where we say: "15 will bat for 12" or "15 will pinch run for 12" or "15 is going to play right field for 4"*. All of these are just substitutions, nothing more, nothing less. What we as umpires need to care about on the line up card:
1. The batting order
2. Who is listed as DP/Flex (if used)
3. Who was the last players to pitch/catch for the purposes of CR's (if allowed by rules code) - And who was the CR, when and for whom.
4. Who is in the game and who has re-entry
*5. defensive positions if played under NCAA rules due to the definition of a proper line up card.
6. Also conferences, warnings, etc.

We need to use language properly. A coach may say "I don't have to tell you that 15 is back in the game, I told you that 12 was her pinch runner" or "I told you that 12 was pinch hitting for 15, I didn't say she was going into the field for 15." I admit, those situations are rather rare, but not totally impossible.

My biggest pet peeve about line up comes from umpires themselves. If you are one of those guys who, at the plate meeting, previews a line up card and says: "I see you have 15 (pointing to the DP) batting for 12 (pointing to the flex)" . . . NO NO NO NO. Just check the line up, count the players, and if there are 10 (or how many ever your rule code allows), make sure the DP and Flex are listed properly. The roles of the DP/Flex are not exclusive to the "hitting for" role.

Bottom line, if a coach wants to make an offensive substitution when its not the players turn at bat, I'll tell the coach of the implications, and them let the coach make that choice to either make the substitution now or later. That's not projected and very much allowed.

Of course the original question had nothing to do with ASA.... LOL:rolleyes:

Oh, I get it now. Where it says in NFHS 3-3-3, "Projected substitutions are not permitted," I'm supposed to interpret that as meaning, "DEFENSIVE projected substitutions are not permitted."

And where it says in ASA 4-6-A, "The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters," it really means, "The manager or team representative of the team making the DEFENSIVE substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the DEFENSIVE substitute enters."

:(

You can enter the game on offense without immediate participation. Same on defense. Here is your example #1:
One the last play of an inning, #3 gets injured while recording the last out. She is due to bat 7th that inning. The coach informs you that #8 will be replacing her. Are you going to not allow the coach to make that substitution? And if she doesn't bat, wouldn't that become a defacto defensive substitution? There is at least one rule code that REQUIRES a substitution at that point (NCAA)

Oh, then there is example #2: on the last play of the inning, #3, while recording the last out, is ejected (for what ever reason). ASA and NCAA both REQUIRE a valid substitution to continue, which means a player enters the game without immediate participation.

Would you allow this? Baker is playing Flex. Jones is Playing DP. In their defensive half of the inning, the coach comes out to you and tells you Jones will start playing Defense for Smith. Smith mad about this yells at the coach. The coach comes back out and tells you that Brown is replacing Smith.
It has no immediate impact on the game since Brown and Smith will continue to occupy their same seats on the bench, but it is an immediate substitution.

If Im following this correctly, you dont have anything to record and there has been no substitutions. The DP can play defense for anyone, except the flex and it is not a substitution. The only times the coach really needs to inform you of the DP playing a defensive position is when they are the pitcher or catcher for courtesy runner purposes, and if they do play defense for the flex, because then you do have a substitution.

Here's the part I believe MD and Manny A are missing.

All 9 (or 10) players in the lineup on both teams are playing in the game at all times; from start (lineup accepted at pregame conference) to finish (game ends by rule). Offensive players listed in the lineup, but not currently batting or running, are still in the game, whether in the on-deck circle, sitting on the bench, or even possibly warming up in the bullpen; and can be replaced by a legal substitute, at any time.

This is true and cited earlier in ASA, NFHS, and NCAA Softball. In fact, I am not familiar with any version of softball that doesn't believe that to be true.

I also doubt that baseball actually has any rules that clearly state an offensive player not currently batting or running cannot be substituted. I would expect they all have language indicating substitutes are in the game when reported/recorded/accepted. I strongly suspect that misguided direction has convinced umpires that what we have discussed in this thread is a "projected" substitution; but if you consider what I stated above, that ALL current players on both teams are in the game, then you have to see that replacing one on either team isn't projected, it is happening when reported/recorded/accepted (whatever specific language indicated.

And, again, to my knowledge, the only rules (especially softball, but again, almost assuredly baseball) that make a substitute "officially" in the game only if they take a position or action in live play (be it defensive position, throwing a pitch, a pitch being thrown, etc.) are those describing when an unreported or illegal substitute are in the game, for the sole purpose of describing when those actions are appealable or correctable.

You've provided two extraordinary circumstances that, without delving into rulebooks right now, have specific mandates in the codes that deal with them. I'm sticking to the basics that you would routinely see during games.

We'll just have to A2D on this. Like I've said before, during the course of a game, I've never accepted projected substitute batters, projected courtesy runner entries, etc. etc., and I've never had a coach complain to me when I've asked him/her to wait until the substitute actually enters the game.

I will agree that you have never accepted projected subs. You have, however, refused to accept substitutions that weren't projected, and could have been made then, by considering them projected.

You have also likely enabled coaches to "change their mind", and thus likely disadvantaged the opponent, by not accepting substitutions for players then in the game when reported.

Even extraordinary circumstances must follow the allowable rules.

With that being said, there is a difference between CAN and MUST. In the injury scenario, only NCAA requires that the coach make the immediate substitution, therefore MUST. In either NFHS or ASA, the coach CAN make the substitution immediately, or when that particular spot is of consequence (batting or taking a defensive position). In the latter two cases, it is allowable, but not mandatory.
In the ejection scenario, there is a MUST for ASA and NCAA (not NFHS). NCAA you cannot play short handed under any circumstance (which covers the injury case as well), ASA cannot play short handed due to ejection.

Ergo, you may not see these scenarios, but these are examples that show an allowable rule on substitution, that any legal player may enter the line up without immediate participation. If the coach gives you a legal change, make the change, report it to the proper people and play on. It doesn't have to be complicated.

The fundamental theory is not to accept future movement of the players (projected substitution) if I say that #10 who is in the bullpen will pitch to the 3rd batter that is a future movement of the players!

Telling me to enter sub #30 for layer #11 and sub #25 for player #33 at the beginning of an inning whether offensive or defensive is a current action and not projected.

Now if I give you #30 for #11 and the state that if #30 gets on #12 will run for her that will not work. I will say #30 is in the game for #11 and let me know when you enter #12 in the game.

There is no ruleset that requires the manager at this point to decide whether #3 will be able to play when either her at bat comes around or they head back out to defense.

What rule in the NCAA code do you think tells you to require a substitution right then and there, after an apparent injury but before that player is required to DO anything?

No, you don't have to record anything when the DP goes into play defense. That's not the substitution[*]. The substitution is Brown for Smith. I was trying to clarify for Manny et al (not sure which camp you are in) that you don't have to be in the game at the moment to be playing by illustrating it on defense. In this case, Smith was going to sit on the bench until her team recorded three outs and came up to bat. That was her position. Now, Brown is going to do that. It's not a projected substitution, it's an immediate substitution but the player isn't doing anything right now.
[*] From someone in our association, I got this phrasing, there are a lot of things you can do with your DP/Flex Coach, and I need to know about all but one of them. Feel free to just bring them all to me.

I was just asking permission to quote your example when teaching. :(

Are you saying you do not note this on your lineup? Tracking defensive positions is required in NCAA and in all codes it is wise to record the player going to the bench to avoid DP identity confusion.

Manny, you are overthinking, or trying to outthink this thing. FORGET, offense, defense or picket fence, just think of it as one player going in for another.

I dont do college ball so have no need to record position changes. I do make note of pitching and catching position changes for courtesy runner eligibility. I also make note of if the DP is playing defense for the pitcher or catcher. Other than that, dont need to know where they are playing defense and dont record it. If there is a question its not that hard to figure out. Call time, ask where the DP is, ask where the flex is. If we dont have a flex on the field, we have a problem.

The manager is not required to give you all the changes at once. He can have each batter report in, or he can give them all to you at once. His choice, not ours.

The only time a substitution would be required immediately is if an event caused a whole in the line-up, as in an ejection, an injury forcing the removal of a player from the game, someone's mother calling their child home, etc. IOW, when it is obvious the player presently in the line-up can no longer continue.

And before it is raised, yes, there are circumstances where a shorthanded rule permits a team to continue without a sub if one is not available.

NCAA 8.1

The language is "fielding a team" and, just like many rules, is rather ambiguous. In both scenarios, if there are two outs, then the rule is rather clear, game over. However, in the specific case of an injury with out #3, the coach does have a slight option. As per the interpretations on Arbiter, the coach does not have to make the sub right away and can leave the player in the line up. She can also take her position in the batter's box (which is a requirement) while not expecting to even swing at a pitch. Of course, this would happen under very limited circumstances, such as that team needing just a few runs to end the game.

I think the ambiguity comes in if the player leaves the park for medical treatment. She might be due up 7th or 8th in the inning, but can we say the team is "fielding" the required amount of players? I don't know the answer to that, but if I were the other coach, I would protest.

Of course, this doesn't apply to ASA of NFHS, as both allow for short handed play.

Why did you quote my post on this. Sounds like you're agreeing with me.

Generally, in an NCAA game, a player could "leave" via the back of the dugout for a variety of purposes - she's not unable to play until she's actually unable to perform her duties (not there to take the field, or take her spot in the batter's box). I've never even heard of someone taking this rule to mean that if a coach protested that the 7th batter happened to not be in the dugout, that we must hunt them down to figure out if they were too injured to bat (in 20 minutes when she comes up) or if they are simply getting some gatorade. To say that a player injured during the 3rd out of an inning must somehow prove she's able to continue RIGHT THEN, or demand a sub RIGHT THEN, is more ludicrous than anything I've read on this thread. The poster that posted that is simply flat wrong.

Please re-read what I wrote. You are taking this to an entirely different direction. It isn't about monitoring who is in the dugout and who isn't. It is about a player becoming injured. Currently, there in an interpretation that the coach does not need to make an immediate substitution for an injury, and the injured player can perform her duties to continue the game. That is not my point.

I SPECULATED about a player leaving the park to get medical attention, which would be noticed. I've had three players leave due to injury in the last 3 years, and all were noticed. Again, I SPECULATED as to the interpretation of "fielding a team" in rule 8.1. If I were the umpire, I'm continuing the game until that player needs to do something, like hit or play the field. If I were the opposing coach, I would file a protest under 8.1 for an interpretation. I don't know if it is a valid protest, but that's why there are interpretation.

I misread your post, sorry.

My apologies. I didn't read it that way. :o

And it is appreciated by many of us as this goes a long way to speeding up a game, or at least to avoid slowing it down.