Bases loaded walk...
 

... is R1 forced home or awarded home? I read this discussion here in the past, can't find it. Showed up on a quiz at my first meeting.

Bases loaded, 2 out. Ball 4, R1 trots home, R2 sprints to 3rd and rounds it, picked off at 3rd before R1 touches home plate. Run counts?

ASA, the run would not score. NCAA, the run scores. I'm not 100% positive, however I believe the NFHS ruling is the run scores.

It does. Case play 9.1.1D: With two outs and R1, R2 and R3 on base, B6 receives ball four. R3 touches second and is then tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home base. RULING: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b)

(If anyone cares, this also has different rulings amongst the various baseball rulesets as well)

Thanks for the reply... any citation in ASA rules I can refer to on this? I got this answer marked wrong, & I did say 3 outs, no run scores.

Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff? :confused:

You're looking for a rule cite to prove a negative. 8-1-C says that when a batter receives four balls, she is awarded first base. 8-5-A says that runners may advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate their base due to the batter receiving a base on balls.

You're not going to find a rule that says, runners are NOT awarded a base when forced to vacate their bases due to a batter receiving a base on balls.

Just that they are allowed to advance 1 base. Therefore, if someone gets out before a teammate crosses the plate, just like any other time in the game, the run does not score.

The ASA ruling is self-consistent (as described in my last post). NCAA and FED rulings are not consistent with the rest of their rules.

So my question would be - why is everyone else different?

Exactly Mike, that's why my OP started with the force/award question. The test I took was PONY rules; I will check to see if PONY considers all the runners forced to advance. If so, then I can assume the same interp as ASA.

Here is the ruling from the ISF.

R1’s run does not count. See ISF Rule 7 a “one run shall be scored each time a runner legally touches first, second, third bases and home plate before the third out of the inning.” Since R2 was picked off at 3rd base before R1 touched home plate, the run does not score.

Because ASA rules award a base to the batter, not runners. Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced. Rules specifically note that the runner is in jeopardy should s/he attempt to advance beyond that base.

ASA rules also specifically note that a run cannot score after the 3rd out of the half inning has been executed.

I don't know why this NFHS case play cites 9-1-1 Exception b to justify the call. That Exception simply addresses that a run does not count if the third out is a force out. There is no force out in this case play, so citing it is bogus.

Also, 9-1-1 Exception f covers when a runner crosses the plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out. That's what happened here. If NFHS wants the run to score in this situation, it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:

"f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out, unless that runner is forced home because the batter was awarded first base."

[QUOTE=Manny A;877630]
(snip)
it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:
(snip)

"exception to this exception" I like that. ;-)

The OP is about a succeeding runner.

Isn't "Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced" true in all codes?
.................................................. ..................

So R1 des not score because the third out occurred before R1 reached HP.
Still wonder if "philosophy or just incidental diff?"
.................................................. ..................

Also, for others, other codes also say a run cannot score after the 3rd out.
I guess I need to go to the books.

You can check all the books. You won't find any real justification for the run scoring when the third out is made before the run scores other than a case book ruling by DA in NCAA and MS in NFHS. No where is there logic for runners awarded bases on a walk to the batter, they are simply advanced by force; a force that disappears when a trailing runner is put out!

In fact, if they were all awarded bases, wouldn't they advance even when NOT forced? And, wouldn't the run NOT score if a runner failed to advance and that (force) was appealed for the third out? How is that consistent, or logical?

Fed (NFHS) 8-4-3a Effect

"Art.3 . . . A runner is entitled to advance without libility to be put out when:
a. forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded first base.
Effect: (F.P.) The ball remains in play unless it is blocked. Any runner affected is entitled to one base and may advance farther at their own risk if the ball is in play. (S.P.) The ball is dead."

Play 9.1.1 Situation D
"With two outs and R1, R2, and R3 on base, B6 receivs ball four. R3 touches second and is then tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home base. Ruling:The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-1-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b). "

:D

Who left the gate open and let this stranger wander in here? :D

True. But I think the use of the word "preceding" in the rule is meant to address a situation just like the OP. Otherwise, how in the world does a runner cross home plate after an actual preceding runner is declared out?

Hmmmm... Am I thinking that 9-1-1f should have said "succeeding" instead of "preceeding" runner? :eek:

Hey, I'm still on the top side of the grass! (Although I'm getting old.)

I drop by here occasionally to see if ya'll are still around.
:cool:

Good for you. You should stop by more often.

agreed

Yet, the rule you cite clearly does NOT state the base is an award; "entitled to advance" should not supercede other rules which make the run unscored if the third out is made prior to the run actually crossing the plate.

Nor is it listed with "awards".

Yes... I agree that "clearly" the run should not score in NHFS... yet their own published cases and clarifications scores the run, despite the utter lack of rules support.

I'm not a fan of the NFHS interpretation of this situation, yet they appear to be relying on the following part of the EFFECT: Any runner affected is entitled to one base and may advance farther at their own risk if the ball is in play.

Being entitle to one base is completely different than being awarded one base... but this Don Quixote stopped trying to bash this windmill long ago.

Walk-Off Bases Loaded BB
 

I don't want to start a new thread because this is very similar.

ASA Rules (Slow pitch, but shouldn't make a difference)
Tie game, home team at bat, bases loaded, 2 outs.
Batter is awarded a base on balls. Runners advance due to being forced to vacate current base. R1 crosses home plate, BR touches 1st, and R2 touches 3rd; R3 does not complete his base-running responsibilities, does not touch 2B and joins his team mates for the post-game congratulations. Umpires get together and leave the field.

Once R3 leaves live ball territory (assuming umpires were still on the field), it seems the defense could make an appeal that R3 didn't touch 2nd, which would be 3rd out and the score would still be tied and moves to the next inning. (Reasoning - R3 is "entitled" to advance (not awarded) and therefore, must complete base-running responsibilities.)

Assuming last or extra inning, doesn't the game end when the winning run scores because in ASA this becomes an appeal which would be ruled after the score?

Correct assumption concerning the inning - either bottom of last inning, or bottom of extra inning.

Why is this an appeal?

Is it a missed base, violating 8.7-G (which would be an appeal) or, by referencing leaving live ball territory, haven't you actually judged this a violation of 8.7-U, abandoning?

Man up, guys (and gals); you need to make this call if it happens, not hope the visiting team doesn't appeal. :o:o

Didn't R1 score before R3 entered dead ball territory?

(Didn't R3 START in live ball territory! :) )

A run cannot score when... blah blah blah ... FORCED ... blah blah blah.

If it's a "walk off" base-on-balls the players will probably not leave the field for a bit. There is the celebrating and usually the handshake ritual. I am going to watch the runners touch (or not touch in this case) the next base. If there is no appeal forthcoming we (the umpires) are going to take our leave. Once we leave it's too late. R3 is still on the field and still has not touched the next base which she was forced to. Too bad. Game over.

I suppose if I call "ball" (four) and R3 turns and runs directly into dugout to get glove for next inning thinking it was strike three you could rule abandonment.