BOO Change 2013?

[MD Longhorn]

I'm being told there's a significant rule change regarding BOO for 2013. The scenario being discussed:

B1 on first, B2 due up. B4 bats instead and hits into a double play. 2012 (and before) - 3 outs.

I'm being told this is 2 outs in 2013, but the logic given by the person telling us this doesn't jive.

What is the new rule???

[CecilOne]

Because of the 3 outs aspect, looks like you are talking ASA.

isn't it too late for any further changes?

ASA Council Meeting

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I'm being told there's a significant rule change regarding BOO for 2013. The scenario being discussed:

B1 on first, B2 due up. B4 bats instead and hits into a double play. 2012 (and before) - 3 outs.

I'm being told this is 2 outs in 2013, but the logic given by the person telling us this doesn't jive.

What is the new rule???

I just attended an ASA clinic this past weekend, with Julie Johnson giving the lecture on rule changes. She said the new BOO change brings ASA in line with NFHS and NCAA.

In the scenario you describe, B4's putout at first base is negated because she was the improper batter. The only outs recorded on the play are the putout of B1 at second, and the out on B2 for failing to bat as the proper batter.

Also, if B3 rather than B4 had batted improperly in your scenario, she will no longer be skipped except in Co-Ed ball. She would bat again by virtue of being the next batter after the proper batter is declared out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I just attended an ASA clinic this past weekend, with Julie Johnson giving the lecture on rule changes. She said the new BOO change brings ASA in line with NFHS and NCAA.

In the scenario you describe, B4's putout at first base is negated because she was the improper batter. The only outs recorded on the play are the putout of B1 at second, and the out on B2 for failing to bat as the proper batter.

Also, if B3 rather than B4 had batted improperly in your scenario, she will no longer be skipped except in Co-Ed ball. She would bat again by virtue of being the next batter after the proper batter is declared out.

Yeah, I think this is one that ASA had right, but changed for no apparent reason than to be like the other guys.

The change actually penalizes the defense based upon an offensive violation.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, I think this is one that ASA had right, but changed for no apparent reason than to be like the other guys.

The change actually penalizes the defense based upon an offensive violation.

Since we don't all have the new books yet, can anyone post the text of the rule? I'd like to see how it changes other scenarios.

Is the simplest way to state the effect that we're simply negating anything the improper did, assigning an out to the batter who failed to bat, and letting any other outs (that are not on the improper batter) stand?

So - no one on base; B4 bats where B2 should have and A) got on base; B) got out - in both A and B, we have 1 out, no one on, and B3 up?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, I think this is one that ASA had right, but changed for no apparent reason than to be like the other guys.

The rationale that was given in the clinic was more than just to be like the others. It was because the old rule created scoring headaches.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I personally don't care if the scorekeeper can't figure out how to portray things under the old BOO rule.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So - no one on base; B4 bats where B2 should have and A) got on base; B) got out - in both A and B, we have 1 out, no one on, and B3 up?

You got it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Because of the 3 outs aspect, looks like you are talking ASA.

isn't it too late for any further changes?

ASA Council Meeting

Oh yeah, "BR at bat will now be negated if put out during the play prior to the proper appeal of batting out of order. "

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Since we don't all have the new books yet, can anyone post the text of the rule? I'd like to see how it changes other scenarios.

Section 2. BATTING ORDER.
D. If batting out of order is discovered:
2. After the Incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat and before a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter, or before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory: or on the last play of the game, before the umpire leaves the field of play:
EFFECT: - .
a. The improper batter's time at bat is negated.
b. The player who should have batted is out.
c. Any advancement or score of a runner as a result of the improper batter is negated. Runners not called out must return to the last base occupied at the time of the pitch. Any runner, who is called out prior to the discovery of the infraction remains out.
d. The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat.
EXCEPTION (Co-Ed only): If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat, and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

Changes are underlined.

As I understand it:
What this does is takes away one of the possibilities for the triple play, where incorrect B-R is retired at 1B on a double play, e.g. 6-4-3. However, you can still get a triple play if the double play did not involve the incorrect batter, such as R1 retired at 3B and R2 retired at 2B.

Also while this aligns with NFHS, I thought I heard that it is still different from NCAA.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The rationale that was given in the clinic was more than just to be like the others. It was because the old rule created scoring headaches.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I personally don't care if the scorekeeper can't figure out how to portray things under the old BOO rule.

Yes, I remember that conversation. Think it is just as ridiculous now as I did then.

[EsqUmp]

NCAA Rule 11.11
(a) the player who should have batted is out;
(b) all results because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base as a result of obstruction, an error, a hit batter, walk, dropped third strike or a base hit shall be nullified;
(c) the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called
out for failing to bat;
(d) if the batter declared out under these circumstances is the third out, the correct batter in the next inning shall be the player who would have come to bat had the player been put out; and
(e) if the third out is made on a player before the report of the infraction, an appeal may still be made in order to reinstate the correct batting order.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I just attended an ASA clinic this past weekend, with Julie Johnson giving the lecture on rule changes. She said the new BOO change brings ASA in line with NFHS and NCAA.

In the scenario you describe, B4's putout at first base is negated because she was the improper batter. The only outs recorded on the play are the putout of B1 at second, and the out on B2 for failing to bat as the proper batter.

Also, if B3 rather than B4 had batted improperly in your scenario, she will no longer be skipped except in Co-Ed ball. She would bat again by virtue of being the next batter after the proper batter is declared out.

If she said that, she mis-stated.

In that play, ASA used to get three outs (both outs on the play, and the proper batter as #3); NFHS got, and now ASA gets, the B1 at 2nd, and the proper batter, but negates the out made by B4 (to get the proper batter). Two outs.

If appealed in NCAA (as in baseball, incidentally), the entire play is negated, and only the proper batter is out. In fact, it would be a disadvantage in NCAA to appeal batting out of order on this play, better to let the play stand. Just one out.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

If she said that, she mis-stated.

In that play, ASA used to get three outs (both outs on the play, and the proper batter as #3); NFHS got, and now ASA gets, the B1 at 2nd, and the proper batter, but negates the out made by B4 (to get the proper batter). Two outs.

If appealed in NCAA (as in baseball, incidentally), the entire play is negated, and only the proper batter is out. In fact, it would be a disadvantage in NCAA to appeal batting out of order on this play, better to let the play stand. Just one out.

No, it may have been me who misspoke. She may not have mentioned NCAA.

And you are correct. NCAA is like baseball. In the play in question, it would behoove the defensive head coach in NCAA not to appeal the violation so that his/her team keeps the double play and nobody on base instead of the one out with B1 returning to first. Kinda like having the option to take the play or the penalty, like they do for other violations.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

As I understand it:
What this does is takes away one of the possibilities for the triple play...

It only negates the batters actions with regard to outs. If you have force outs at 3rd and 2nd base then you would still have 3 outs.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

It only negates the batters actions with regard to outs. If you have force outs at 3rd and 2nd base then you would still have 3 outs.

That is what I attempted to articulate.