Trivia 3
 

Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter tips the ball into the dirt about a foot behind home plate, and its spin causes it to roll onto the top of home plate. The batter takes off towards first. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it to first for the out.

Ruling?

2 outs so far.

I think you mean 3.

Hmmm, Id say you just had a double play. Ball was laying on plate, so when catcher picked up the ball, they just made contact with the plate for the force from 3rd, then threw to 1st to retire the batter/runner.

That's how I see it....

I don't. Is a ball trapped against the ground, a body, a wall, anything considered a ball under control? Is a defender not required to demonstrate control of the ball prior to successfully executing an out?

Unless the catcher touched the plate with some other part of her body or uniform prior to the release of the throw to 1B, or picked the ball up and tapped the plate with it, I have the run scoring (assuming she did) and the BR retired at 1B.

Didn't she display control when she was able to successfully lift the ball off the plate without dropping it or bobbling it?

Now we are going to get into physics......:)

Gripping and picking up the ball laying on the plate demonstrated control of the ball. In order to pick up the ball, the player had to have a firm grip on it and control of it. If the ball was picked up cleanly, and I don't see anything to indicate it wasn't, the grip and control was established while the ball was on the plate.

The control of the ball and it's contact with the plate may have only lasted for a few milliseconds, but it was there.

You're making the play too easy. Let's change it up a bit. Bases loaded, 2 outs. The batter misses the ball but it bounces out of the catchers glove to land on the plate. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it into right field.

Ruling? And how many people do you end up ejecting?

You made no change whatsoever. The crux of this question is...

Does picking the ball up while it is on the plate constitute control of the ball and touching the plate at the same time.

I believe it does (a few others have agreed). Mike does not - but I submit this. You are right that holding the ball against the ground is a trap, not a catch... but it is still CONTROL, which is what matters here. If events were reversed, the player has the ball and touches the plate with it - you have the same thing - a player with the ball in her hand touching the plate... and I believe you'd have an out there. So why not in the OP?

CecilOne, you are correct, I didn't read far enough: "throws to first for the out." My apoligies.

I have had this play once in softball and twice in baseball. In one of the baseball games, F2 picked up the ball, I declared R3 out, and the catcher waited to for R3 to come to the plate to tag him not realizing the runner was already out.

In the other baseball game, as soon as F2 picked up the ball, the DC started hollering to F2 to throw the ball to 1B for the DP. After play relaxed, the OC wanted to know why F3 was out because F2 didn't step on the plate.

Yeah I agree with you on the crux of the question. In my judgment a ball picked up off a base has tagged that base while in control of the fielder.
I just think my change makes the question more fun.

Wow, THREE times! I've never seen it happen. Heck, I can't even recall ever seeing a batted ball stay on the plate.

What I did have that requires similar thinking was this play: Ground ball to F6, and her throw to first is dropped by F3. The ball land at F3's feet, and she puts her bare hand on top of the ball with her fingers around it, but she doesn't pick it up. That's the position she's in when the BR reaches and touches first base.

I ruled the BR out because I felt F3 had control of the ball when she wrapped her hand around it. The fact that the ball was on the ground had no bearing on the play, since the ground wasn't helping her maintain that control.

I'm with Mike so far! I don't believe he has established control.....

So would you guys give a fielder a force-out if he reached down, grabbed the ball ON the ground, never lifting it, while his foot was touching the bag.

Manny is a lot better umpire than me and I've learned a lot from him. But I disagree a ball on the ground whether trapped by bare hand or in the outer webbing of a glove is control or an out.
I don't have control until it's picked up off the ground on the ops question. No force at home 2 outs!

But I've been wrong before...:D

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

How is that possible? If picking up the ball establishes control, then there is a (albeit very small) period of time where the ball is controlled and still touching the plate.

Nope.....Lifting the ball is what demonstrates control.

If the ball is on the ground and the fielder puts his hand on top of it, I can't tell if he has control or not. When he lifts the ball, that demonstrates control. As I said before, control started when he gripped the ball, but was not demonstrated to me until the ball was lifted. If the fielder never lifts the ball, I can't tell if he has control or not, so the benefit of that doubt goes to the offense.

Thanks Andy!

"IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine)."

That's what my UIC just told me so I'm going with that.. :)

Still disagree with you, but this got me thinking... F3 takes a throw from F6 ahead of the runner and traps it against the dirt with her foot on the bag. In a) the batter-runner crosses before the ball is picked up. In b) the BR crosses after the ball is picked up. In Fed I have an out in b only. In ASA in a, I'm asking the fielder to demonstrate control of the ball. If she can do that cleanly, I have an out.

Now, wouldn't the same thing apply at the plate. Bases loaded, ball lands on the plate and the catcher can't find it. As the runner is about to get home the catcher grabs the ball and simply holds it against the plate. After the runner slides home she pulls it cleanly off the plate. I've got an out in ASA and no out in Fed, yes?

Then ask your UIC this ... if a player has the ball in a bare hand, dives for the base to beat a runner and lands with only the ball touching the base - is that runner out (assume a force or first base)?

If you have a different answer here - justify that within the context of the rules.

When the player lifts the ball, they demonstrate that they had control of the ball while it was on the ground being picked up. If they did not have control when they began to lift their hand, the ball would come out.

I was with you right until "and no out in fed"... why the difference?

Well, I definitely put a question mark at the end of it. But if a tag of the plate with the foot doesn't count unless you show control first then why should a tag of the plate with the ball. You have to show that you had control during the tag by cleaning picking up the ball in time.

This is my 17th year. The first 11 years was spent solely doing SB and BB in youth leagues, 15 and under. You will see more crapola in one year of youth ball than in 3 years of HS and above.

That is the truth.

Rita

There is your answer underlined. Player already had "ball in hand" and touched base. Very different from ball laying on base and not in hand.

So, using your logic of needing additional evidence to determine control, one could argue that "Show me the ball!" is a totally irrelevant demand. After all, the fielder may have had the ball when she tagged the runner, but his/her possession was not demonstrated until he/she showed it to you afterward.

Sorry, but I don't buy that argument. I think it's perfectly acceptable to judge that when we see a fielder clearly grip the ball with his/her fingers around it, we can conclude that control was established at that point, regardless of what else the ball may be touching at that time. Unless the fielder has extremely tiny fingers, he/she is going to pick up that ball without any need for additional gripping or adjusting. It's not like trying to palm a basketball.

If showing you the ball after a tag is enough to convince you that the fielder had the ball when he/she made the tag, then lifting the ball off the ground should equally be enough to convince you that the fielder had the ball when he/she gripped it.

What makes it different... in both cases, the ball is under the control of the fielder. If they are able to pick it up, then they controlled it in that instant.

Not sure if I could locate it immediately, but I am positive there is an NFHS ruling or case play which does require the player to pick the ball off the ground before the runner.

I am equally sure that ASA and NCAA both allow the umpire judgment of control if the player can come up with the ball cleanly, even after the runner has passed, as long as the player doesn't do anything additional (ie, now wrap fingers around, or tighten the grip) in between. Although you can more easily sell "no control" on the trap than control bringing it up later, the ability to sell it shouldn't affect how we call it, should it?

For some odd reason, with equal evidence :rolleyes:, I have a feeling it is just the opposite where NFHS allows the ball to covered and considered in possession if the fielder can then demonstrate control by lifting it off the ground.

NFHS 2.9.5 Sit C: F3 secures a thrown ball while it is in contact with the ground and her hand is on top of the ball. F3 turns her hand over so the ball is facing upward (a) before; or (b) after the batter-runner touches first base. RULING: In both (a) and (b) the batter-runner is out. F3 demonstrated control of the thrown ball by turning it upward. COMMENT: Umpires must determine if the fielder had control of the ball before the runner touched the base. This is a similar situation to the umpire asking to "see the ball" after a tag has been made. (2-9-5f).

Just curious ... I know a couple of you are quite a ways up the flagpole, so to speak, but 2 of you that I KNOW are high up seem to disagree on this. Wondering if one of you or both could contact someone from whom an opinion on this would be definitive. Now that we've posted this and the minds I trust to be right are not in agreement, I KNOW this will happen to me next year. :)

Don't have citation, but to me it is equivalent to a trapped ball. If ball is touching the ground in an effort to field the ball, "control" is being provided by the player and the ground. We don't have possession until the ball is lifted away.

For a play at a base, if in the process of catching the ball, the ball remains in contact with the ground or the base I wouldn't call an out unless the ball was lifted. But if Fn had ball in hand and the tags the base with the ball that would be an easy out.

Not that I'm a higher up or ever will be. :) I do plan running this by KR, CC or LM at the ASA advanced clinic if I'm able to attend it again next year.



How would you guys rule on a ball that is trapped/controlled "you pick" with the glove. Meaning a ball that is half sticking out of the outer webbing of the glove and the ball is on the ground. For instance, a scoop attempt at 1st. The runner passes 1B while the ball is on the ground and in the glove. Do you have an out if he lifts it cleanly after the runner gains the base?

Another interesting The Official Forum topic!!!

Thanks Much~

I would call the runner safe under the assumption that the fielder was using the ground to assist in controlling the ball. S/he might continue and make the pick cleanly, but I don't think I'd call the out if the ball was still in contact with the ground.

BTW, IMO, "show me the ball" has nothing to do with this, nor this have anything to do with "show me the ball".

And vice versa.

There is a difference between a ball that is trapped under a glove, and one where the fielder is gripping it with the bare hand as we're discussing, IMO. With the glove, you can't see that the ball is being securely held underneath. With th bare hand, you can.

I honestly can't understand why some people feel that a gripped ball that is still touching the ground is not under the fielder's control. If I ever see a ball fall from a fielder's hand when he/she grips it and then lifts the hand, then I'll change my opinion on this. But I feel pretty confident that that won't happen.

Really? You ever see a defender lose the grip on the ball when applying a tag? I have, so obviously that "grip" isn't all it is made out to be.

It is real simple. The fielder needs to demonstrate control of the ball. Okay, demonstrate it. All a smart player would do is just roll over the hand holding the ball on the base.

All due respect, c'mon. Apples and cantaloupes. Of course I've seen that. But that's because a force is applied to the fielder's hand that causes him/her to lose that grip.

What force other than gravity is at work here? What could possibly cause the fielder to lift his/her hand gripped around the ball, and the ball stays on the plate?

Not always. I've seen players lose the ball simply because they extend their arm reaching to the runner and the ball slipped out of their hand yet up to that point there seemed to be a good grip.

Who knows, that is why the fielder is supposed to demonstrate control

And my point (and others') is that picking it up without any sort of bobbling shows just that control. Picking up a ball off the ground and then rolling your hand over while still touching the ground with your hand, all while preparing to throw - that's a bit much.

To start, I didn't say pick up the ball and then roll the hand. I just said roll over the hand. IOW, put the hand or glove under the ball as is noted in the ISF manual.

The key is to show contol by not having the ball rest on or be trapped against anything other than the fielder's hand and/or glove.

Fn?
 

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