Use the Force?
 

Runners on the corners, 2 outs. The batter grounds to the SS, who gloves the ball and drops it. The runner from 1st beats the throw at 2nd, but she overslides the base (failing to touch the bag at all) and is tagged out. Before the runner from 1st was tagged, the runner from 3rd crossed home. Does the run count?

Passing the base is considered reaching it unless appealed and this does not read like an appeal.

Cecil:

I agree with you ruling, but lets add a little something extra. After R1 is tagged out by F6, can the Defense just appeal R1 missing 2B thereby having an advantageous Fourth Out?

MTD, Sr.

How did the ball get from second to first?

And it does not matter where the runner from third was since it was the third out it second.

I don't mean to be abrupt but this is pretty wrong and a little misleading. First the play was at second not 1st, he's talking about the runner going from first to second.
Now, the out was not a force out at second it was a tag out of a runner who had already acquired the forced base. Therefore, this is a timing play and it does in fact matter when the runner scored.

HUH?

Oh dear. Read more first, then type.

I'm digging through file after file, looking for this. I KNOW I read, somewhere, sometime, that a runner oversliding into a base they are forced to who is tagged after they have gone past the base is to still be considered a force play.

My issue, however... did I read that in a ASA memo or monthly rule situation? USSSA? NFHS? Heaven forbid ... baseball??? Yuck.

Anyone have any idea what my puny brain is trying so hard to recall?

You both missed (she over slides the base (failing to touch the bag at all)

And since that happen the force is still in affect...

Therefore it is the third out of the inning.

With all due respect, sir... I didn't MISS it... I TYPED it. A general principle is that when a runner passes a base, she is deemed to have touched it until appealed. You seem to be not clear on this.

In ASA...no.

The fourth out appeal is limited to runners that have scored.

If I'm not mistaken, in softball, unlike baseball, the advantageous fourth out may only be recorded on the scoring runner.

For example, let's say on this play, the runner going to second did tag second base, but then overslid the bag and was tagged for the third out. On the play, R1 from third passed home before the tag (time play), but she missed home plate. The defense may appeal the miss of home for the advantageous fourth out.

So I'm not sure you can have an advantageous fourth out here. What you may have (which is the crux of MD's question) is that the out at second is still a force out to negate the run. I'm not sure what the answer is on that one.

See my post above.....to the best of my knowledge, ASA is the only ruleset that limits the advantageous fourth out appeal to a runner that has scored.

In all other rulesets, as far as I know, the fourth out appeal in the play in the OP (force at second base) would be honored to negate the run. In ASA play, the umpires would not honor this appeal.

I freely admit that I am not familiar with all of the rulesets out there and it is entirely possible that one of the other alphabet soup organizations addresses the fourth out appeal differently.

Speaking NCAA....
Count the run. (6.1.3.2)

Have not done NCAA in years and do not have an old book...

But I am not buying it that you can score a rule on the 3rd out when it is a force.

They can't, if it is a force.

And isn't that what you have at second base in the OP?

No, not if the runner physically passed the base.

Think of it this way, if the runner rounded 2B without touching it and was tagged out, would it then be a force then?

No. But the post said...

But she over slides the base (failing to touch the bag at all and is tagged out before getting back to the bag.

I said that this a force for the third out and no run would be scored.

Some of the posters when stating that this would not be a force, I did not say that.

This reminds me of a discussion on eteamz once....Appeal vs. Play?:eek:

The runner has missed second. Is the tag of her an appeal of a missed base or a play on a runner who has missed the bag.

Rita:D

I don't know softball rules as well as I know baseball rules but the question would be whether or not it is a force. The runner has gone past the bag without touching.

Is the tag of the runner an appeal (which can't be accidental at first why should it be at second?) or a play on a runner who is assumed to have touched second? If it is a play on the runner, then it is a timing play and the run scores.

If it is an appeal of a missed base, then the run will not score.

Rita

You asked if the OP was a force and my response was no.

Once he passes the base the force is off.

See ASA 8-3-B

When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to
have touched that base. This also applies to awarded bases.

I know it has been said by others but I will reiterate.....If the runner slid past 2nd....they are considered to have touched the base.

Joel

So, correct me if I'm wrong. All are pretty much in agreement that the run scores on this play, at least in ASA, since:

1. The runner is assumed to have touched second base when she passed it, removing the force
2. The tag of the runner attempting to return to second base is not considered an appeal
3. There is no opportunity to subsequently appeal her miss of second base for an advantageous fourth out

Now, consider a similar play, except that the play is on the BR at first. On the play, F6's throw to first is offline, and the BR avoids F3's tag attempt after F3 catches the errant throw. While she avoids the tag, the BR fails to touch first base while passing it. The BR is unable to return to the bag before F3 tags her. R1 at third touches home well before the tag of the BR.

If I understand RS#1 in the ASA book, the tag of the BR missing first is considered an appeal, and the run would not score, correct?

If that's the case, why the inconsistency between similar plays?

Because on the play at 2nd, it's not obviously an appeal --- as there is another perfectly valid reason to be tagging the runner... she's off the base and liable to be put out. Nothing make it clear that the fielder is appealing the miss, but rather she's simply tagging a player.

At first, the runner is NOT in jeopardy of a normal tag for overrunning the base, so the tag of that player IS obviously an appeal of the miss.

I'm going to disagree that the tag of the runner that missed first is an obvious appeal.

In order to honor an appeal, I better get some indication from the defense that is is an appeal and what they are appealing.

There are other reasons that the defensive player could be making that tag, pehaps the defense feels that the runner made an attempt to second base.

On this play, somebody on defense better give me some indication that they saw the runner miss first base and that is why they are making a tag.

Have to go with Andy on that.

If the tag is made (at 2B) before the run scores, and then, seconds later, F6 (who made the tag) states to me something to the effect that "you did see her completely miss the base, right?"... should that be upheld as an appeal?
Meaning, the statement is made after the run scores...

The kicker here, and I believe the question was, would the appeal be a valid fourth out appeal and, in ASA, it is not.

But in that case, would it be a fourth out or a third out.

Seconds after? No, I don't think so. Immediately after, I can see.

Only if the defense makes it clear that they are tagging the runner to appeal the miss of second base, and not because she's simply off the base. And I don't see how they can do that in this situation, since the runner is scrambling back to the bag.

That's the fundamental problem with ASA not recognizing the advantageous fourth out for anyone other than the scoring runner. It essentially penalizes the defense for making tag plays during "unrelaxed" action that umpires would never recognize as appeals.

I meant if we were counting it as a legit appeal, how many outs would there be?

Playing devil's advocate.

Most, if not all, of the times that F3 would tag a BR (now R) that has overrun first base is to appeal an attempt to second. So, I don't think that appeal is obvious, at all; and if appealing the wrong thing, the appeal should be denied!!

How do you differentiate THAT appeal (where the run would score even if you honored it) from an appeal of a missed base (where the run would not score)? Don't you have to ask what F3 is appealing?

FWIW, I've always thought it was bogus to consider tagging a BR who made an attempt to go to second base as an appeal. Why not just consider it a normal tag play of a runner off the base? If it were really an appeal, then a tag of the runner or the base should be honored. But a tag of first base for a BR who attempted to advance to second is not going to retire that runner. And as you point out, honoring that appeal has no bearing on determining when runs score.

That said, tags of BRs overrunning first base almost always comes with some sort of comment by the defense. You'll either hear, "TAG HER! SHE TURNED FOR SECOND!" or "TAG HER! SHE MISSED THE BAG!" Wouldn't hearing the latter comment, and/or clearly seeing from the BR's reaction that she KNEW she missed the bag be enough to indicate the tag is an appeal?

I was replying to Manny, who had asked about appealing a batter who had missed first and why the difference between that and the OP. I agree that it must be obviously an appeal of a miss, and not just a guess that the runner had made a move to second (or heaven forbid, TURNED LEFT instead of right).

In ASA, you can only have one out on the runner. It's either going to be a third out for a "normal" tag while off the bag, or a third out for an "appeal" tag.

And the defense has to make it clear which one it is at the time of the tag. They can't tag her and then say afterwards, "By the way, Blue, that tag was to appeal her miss of the bag," as they're trotting off the field toward the dugout.

I agree as long as immediate (milliseconds.......;))........or while applying the tag.....then it is unmistakable......

I hate to use a BB term here.....but just tagging a runner who overslid a bag is not an appeal but an attempt at an out "during continuous action"......unless it includes some verbiage indicating it is an appeal.

Joel