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Manny A Mon Sep 24, 2012 08:39am

Getting Help From Player
 
Had an 18U rec game last week, and on the very first pitch of the game, the batter tried to jump over a low pitch in her batter's box. The catcher moved into my slot to try and field the pitch, which ended up going to the backstop, and I couldn't see it. However, I clearly heard the ball hit something, and I thought it was the catcher's mitt, so I called the pitch a Ball.

The batter then looked at me and said, "Blue, the ball hit my foot." I responded, "I thought it hit the catcher's mitt." Then, the catcher, after retrieving the ball, replied, "No, the ball didn't hit my mitt."

Since this was a rec game, I went ahead and sent the batter to first base. The only one who complained, and that was done rather mildly, was the batter's coach. He wanted his batter to stay up there in hopes of getting a pitch to hit.

So, what do you typically do in a situation like this? If a defensive player tells you she dropped the ball on a tag, or an offensive player tells you she failed to touch a base, do you stick with the call you made? Or do you go ahead and change it to acknowledge a player's honesty?

CecilOne Mon Sep 24, 2012 09:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 855648)
Had an 18U rec game last week, and on the very first pitch of the game, the batter tried to jump over a low pitch in her batter's box. The catcher moved into my slot to try and field the pitch, which ended up going to the backstop, and I couldn't see it. However, I clearly heard the ball hit something, and I thought it was the catcher's mitt, so I called the pitch a Ball.

The batter then looked at me and said, "Blue, the ball hit my foot." I responded, "I thought it hit the catcher's mitt." Then, the catcher, after retrieving the ball, replied, "No, the ball didn't hit my mitt."

Since this was a rec game, I went ahead and sent the batter to first base. The only one who complained, and that was done rather mildly, was the batter's coach. He wanted his batter to stay up there in hopes of getting a pitch to hit.

So, what do you typically do in a situation like this? If a defensive player tells you she dropped the ball on a tag, or an offensive player tells you she failed to touch a base, do you stick with the call you made? Or do you go ahead and change it to acknowledge a player's honesty?

Is everyone taught to get all the info we can from reasonable sources?

In the OP, probably would agree, but my perception of the distance/angle to the batter's foot would affect that probability.

Andy Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:31am

I think you deal with this on a case-by-case basis.

In the given situation, I don't have an issue with what you did. Both the offense and the defense were in agreement that the pitch hit the batter.

You need to consider the level of the game, the importance of the game, etc., very carefully when choosing to accept this type of "help". If in doubt, I would go with what you saw or what information you can get from your partner.

IRISHMAFIA Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 855648)
Had an 18U rec game last week, and on the very first pitch of the game, the batter tried to jump over a low pitch in her batter's box. The catcher moved into my slot to try and field the pitch, which ended up going to the backstop, and I couldn't see it. However, I clearly heard the ball hit something, and I thought it was the catcher's mitt, so I called the pitch a Ball.

The batter then looked at me and said, "Blue, the ball hit my foot." I responded, "I thought it hit the catcher's mitt." Then, the catcher, after retrieving the ball, replied, "No, the ball didn't hit my mitt."

Since this was a rec game, I went ahead and sent the batter to first base. The only one who complained, and that was done rather mildly, was the batter's coach. He wanted his batter to stay up there in hopes of getting a pitch to hit.

So, what do you typically do in a situation like this? If a defensive player tells you she dropped the ball on a tag, or an offensive player tells you she failed to touch a base, do you stick with the call you made? Or do you go ahead and change it to acknowledge a player's honesty?

SHOE POLISH! Look for the damn shoe polish on the ball. Yeah, that would work if all the shoes were black and players actually polished them :)

Tru_in_Blu Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:20pm

polish

As I recall, the only word in the English language that changes how you pronounce it depending on the case [upper or lower] of the first letter.

When it's used at the start of a sentence, all kinds of strange things could happen. :D

Far far away .. Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:49pm

I had a different play to the OP - but similar in terms of help being offered.

Tag play at 3rd base, ball coming in from left field and I got straight lined with the runners body (sliding) in between me and the low tag. I couldn't see contact and called safe.

F5 is less than impressed asks me to go for help - my partner doesn't have clear contact either and so the call stands.

Then the runner fesses up and says "he got me". At which point I said "well if you want to give yourself up ...." and so he abandoned the base and I called him out crossing into dead ball territory.

So I have a similar question - should I reverse a call on basis of runner admitting contact?

Dakota Mon Sep 24, 2012 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 855691)
polish

As I recall, the only word in the English language that changes how you pronounce it depending on the case [upper or lower] of the first letter.

When it's used at the start of a sentence, all kinds of strange things could happen. :D

august?

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 24, 2012 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far far away .. (Post 855694)
should I reverse a call on basis of runner admitting contact?

I wouldn't ... would you reverse a call on the basis of a runner admitting he was safe?

Far far away .. Mon Sep 24, 2012 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 855701)
I wouldn't ... would you reverse a call on the basis of a runner admitting he was safe?

Well I have seen the situation where a tag play was called and the fielder admitted to not making contact.

Runners tend to swear they were safe rather than admit it ;)

Andy Mon Sep 24, 2012 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far far away .. (Post 855694)
I had a different play to the OP - but similar in terms of help being offered.

Tag play at 3rd base, ball coming in from left field and I got straight lined with the runners body (sliding) in between me and the low tag. I couldn't see contact and called safe.

F5 is less than impressed asks me to go for help - my partner doesn't have clear contact either and so the call stands.

Then the runner fesses up and says "he got me". At which point I said "well if you want to give yourself up ...." and so he abandoned the base and I called him out crossing into dead ball territory.

So I have a similar question - should I reverse a call on basis of runner admitting contact?

The way I see it, you didn't reverse anything. I kind of liked how you left it up to the runner....and he chose to abandon his baserunning duties and be out.

As I said in Manny's OP...I think you handle these situations on a case-by-case basis...the default would be to stick with what you saw and called.

Far far away .. Mon Sep 24, 2012 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 855727)
The way I see it, you didn't reverse anything. I kind of liked how you left it up to the runner....and he chose to abandon his baserunning duties and be out.

As I said in Manny's OP...I think you handle these situations on a case-by-case basis...the default would be to stick with what you saw and called.

Thanks. Indeed in this case I didn't reverse the call, but wondered after if I should have - hence my adding to the thread when I saw it. I decided I was taking the firm route, explaining what I had and why but not changing. In my mind I wondered if I was being a bit of a hard-a$$, but this was a relatively serious tournament so I didn't want to seem wishy washy.

As background, this was in the UK Adult Co-ed Nationals tournament, so for this side of the pond a fairly serious tournament.

I thought it was classy of the runner to both admit he was tagged and give up the base and I complimented him on his sporting behaviour.

Manny A Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far far away .. (Post 855737)
I had a different play to the OP - but similar in terms of help being offered.

Tag play at 3rd base, ball coming in from left field and I got straight lined with the runners body (sliding) in between me and the low tag. I couldn't see contact and called safe.

F5 is less than impressed asks me to go for help - my partner doesn't have clear contact either and so the call stands.

Then the runner fesses up and says "he got me". At which point I said "well if you want to give yourself up ...." and so he abandoned the base and I called him out crossing into dead ball territory.
.
.
.
I thought it was classy of the runner to both admit he was tagged and give up the base and I complimented him on his sporting behaviour.

Hmmph. If he was so sporting, why didn't he admit he was tagged as soon as you made the Safe call? He didn't fess up until after F5 asked you to get help, you went to your partner, and your partner said he saw nothing different.

Also, I assume that since you went to your partner for help, you called Time first, and play was not resumed when the runner left the base. Can you make an abandonment call on a dead ball?

Far far away .. Thu Sep 27, 2012 01:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 856159)
Hmmph. If he was so sporting, why didn't he admit he was tagged as soon as you made the Safe call? He didn't fess up until after F5 asked you to get help, you went to your partner, and your partner said he saw nothing different.

Also, I assume that since you went to your partner for help, you called Time first, and play was not resumed when the runner left the base. Can you make an abandonment call on a dead ball?

Slow pitch co-ed, so yes time had long since been called.

Speaking ASA, 8.7.U talks about a runner abandoning base and entering team area without qualifying if ball is live or not - so I think we're OK there.

Tru_in_Blu Thu Sep 27, 2012 08:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 855698)
august?

I see this more as which syllable to stress as opposed to a different sound.

[aw-guhst] v [aw-guhst]

[poh-lish] v [pol-ish]

Manny A Fri Sep 28, 2012 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far far away .. (Post 856351)
Speaking ASA, 8.7.U talks about a runner abandoning base and entering team area without qualifying if ball is live or not - so I think we're OK there.

Really? So if I call Time because the coach wants to make a pitching change, and a runner goes into the dugout to get a drink of water during the break, I can call her out for abandonment?

IRISHMAFIA Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 856469)
Really? So if I call Time because the coach wants to make a pitching change, and a runner goes into the dugout to get a drink of water during the break, I can call her out for abandonment?

I hope you have a getaway driver waiting for you :D

Manny A Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 856481)
I hope you have a getaway driver waiting for you :D

No kidding. :p

But it does beg the question (and forgive me for using that phrase incorrectly, whoever dinged me for using it the last time!): Since ASA 8-7-U doesn't specify that abandonment can only happen when the ball is Live, is it appropriate to call a runner out for abandoning the base and entering DBT after an umpire had called Time?

MD Longhorn Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 856656)
No kidding. :p

But it does beg the question (and forgive me for using that phrase incorrectly, whoever dinged me for using it the last time!): Since ASA 8-7-U doesn't specify that abandonment can only happen when the ball is Live, is it appropriate to call a runner out for abandoning the base and entering DBT after an umpire had called Time?

I would say no.

AtlUmpSteve Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 856656)
No kidding. :p

But it does beg the question (and forgive me for using that phrase incorrectly, whoever dinged me for using it the last time!): Since ASA 8-7-U doesn't specify that abandonment can only happen when the ball is Live, is it appropriate to call a runner out for abandoning the base and entering DBT after an umpire had called Time?

Of course not. It also doesn't specify a runner is out if tagged with a ball when off a base can only happen when the ball is live, either. Some things are just assumed as common sense.

Suffice it to say that, in general, only dead ball appeals can generate an out when the ball isn't live. Interesting question for the masses; who can name other instances noted in the rules?

The only one I can think of off hand is the out for playing short-handed when that position comes up to bat. Any others?

Dakota Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 856656)
...But it does beg the question (and forgive me for using that phrase incorrectly, whoever dinged me for using it the last time!)...

That was me, and no, I won't forgive you since you obviously know you are using it wrongly, and intend to continue to do so. :D

Manny A Tue Oct 02, 2012 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 856664)
Suffice it to say that, in general, only dead ball appeals can generate an out when the ball isn't live. Interesting question for the masses; who can name other instances noted in the rules?

The only one I can think of off hand is the out for playing short-handed when that position comes up to bat. Any others?

I would think that a batter who steps in the box with an illegal bat would be one. Play could still be dead from previous action, and there is no need for the opposing team to appeal if the PU notices the infraction.

MD Longhorn Tue Oct 02, 2012 02:17pm

BOO can result in an out during a dead ball... yeah, I know that's kind of an appeal too, but I don't think that's what you meant when you said, "dead ball appeal". I could be wrong.

Crabby_Bob Tue Oct 02, 2012 08:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 856664)
[...]

Suffice it to say that, in general, only dead ball appeals can generate an out when the ball isn't live. Interesting question for the masses; who can name other instances noted in the rules?

The only one I can think of off hand is the out for playing short-handed when that position comes up to bat. Any others?

Not an appeal: The base runners switch positions on the bases they occupied following any conference. ASA 8.7.Y

The bonus is that you get to dump the manager too. Booyah! :D

Rita C Wed Oct 03, 2012 01:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 856759)
That was me, and no, I won't forgive you since you obviously know you are using it wrongly, and intend to continue to do so. :D

He's not using it "wrongly". He's using it "incorrectly".:p

Rita:D

Dakota Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rita C (Post 856835)
He's not using it "wrongly". He's using it "incorrectly".:p

Rita:D

Using the adverb "wrongly" may be unusual, but it is not incorrect. Most people in the USA would merely use the word "wrong" as an adverb. But, then, most people (even ad writers for a certain car company) use "begs the question" wrong! ;)

Rita C Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 856883)
Using the adverb "wrongly" may be unusual, but it is not incorrect. Most people in the USA would merely use the word "wrong" as an adverb. But, then, most people (even ad writers for a certain car company) use "begs the question" wrong! ;)

It isn't incorrect to use "ain't" either but it isn't the best choice.

Rita

Dakota Thu Oct 04, 2012 09:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rita C (Post 856957)
It isn't incorrect to use "ain't" either but it isn't the best choice.

Rita

"ain't" is slang (or used to be anyway); "wrongly" ain't. ;)

Umpteenth Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:51am

Maybe Rita's just trying to take preventative action. :p

I have yet to understand how a noun became an adjective. :confused:

MD Longhorn Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:58am

This thread has spun off into tangent-land...


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