What's the call??? What's the scoring?

[Topshelf1227]

I am the plate umpire -- Here's the situation: Williamsport 12-U fastpitch tourney. Bases laoded, 1 out. Batter comes to the plate who, in her two previous at bats in the game, threw the bat out of her hands -- once flying against the backstop and once hitting me in the leg. First time I warned her that she has to hold the bat tighter and drop it, not let it fly straight back. Second time I told her, and let both coaches know that it is dangerous and I would have to call the batter out if it happens anymore.

Well, anyway, she comes up to bat and I remind her to hold the bat tight. She hits the ball to second and the bat comes flying out of her hands AGAIN and this time hits the catcher and myself. I immediately call "batter is out!! Ball is dead" about 7 times, but with the screams of the fans, only a few heard me. I have the dead ball signal up, and my partner also puts his hands up. The kids keep on playing out this play, however, and it results in a force at second (or so they thought) I pointed to the batter runner who now stood on second base and I said "batter is out for throwing the bat and the ball is dead." The defense, now thinking the play at second stood, thinks there is 3 outs and comes off the field. I turn to the official scorers who say to me "you called her out for throwing the bat??? How do you score that?? Umpires call???" Another umpire (who was doing a baseball game just before and was watching our game) kept saying to me "that was a horrible call How do you call that You're ridiculous!!!!" The scorer got angry with me because we rightfully (I feel) had to nullify everything that ensued on that play and get all scorebooks correct and accurate.

My question is this -- was I right in making that call?? What is the ruling on it? Is it a dead ball? What does the scorer write down in the book on that play?

On a sidenote, I was MAD that a fellow umpire would question my call -- right or wrong -- and thought he was extremely umprofessional.

[Steve M]

Top,
Welcome aboard. I'm going to assume that by "Williamsport rules" you mean LL ball. Do they have such a rule that permits a batter who carelessly throws a bat to be called out? Is that considered interference? Even though I live about 30 miles from Williamsport, I don't have or want anything to do with LL, so keep that in mind. Under any other sanctioning body, that would have been the wrong call as there was no interference by a thrown bat in your play with the ball going to F4 and the bat going backwards. If you felt it was deliberate, toss the batter for unsportsmanlike conduct after the play is over but the replacement player would be put on whatever base the B-R ended up on.

As to the conversation with the scorekeeper - I would not have had that discussion. Keeping score is not my job, it's their job.

And the umpire in the stands was so far out of line with making any comment at all that he's got no credibility at all.

Steve M

[MichaelVA2000]

Top,

I don't know of any rule in any association that allows a batter to be called out after putting a pitched ball in play to be called out for throwing the bat as you described. When I've had that situation, after the play is completed I issue a team warning about thrown bats. The next player on their team who throws a bat is disqualified from further play. If it's a high school game I restrict the offender to the bench.

Michael

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Steve M
Under any other sanctioning body, that would have been the wrong call as there was no interference by a thrown bat in your play with the ball going to F4 and the bat going backwards.
Steve M

Except in Dixie. They have a rule that states that the batter is out if she slings her bat.

[Steve M]

Thanks, Scott. Guess I show some of my ignorance about some of the other groups at times. Top, I should probably have clarified for you that I'm pretty solid with ASA, Fed, & NCAA rules.

Steve M

[ref5678]

The league for which im a uic for plays fed rules with exceptions one of which that states if a batter throws her bat she is out. No warnings no exceptions

[bethsdad]

I just looked threw my LL rule book and couldn't find anything about throwing the bat. I have heard that rule befor and will have to find it for next year. LL is big on safety so it is possable... they don't even allow an on deck batter. I have also "heard" the rule if you take your helmet off when not in the dugout you are out. I like ASA more all the time !

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by bethsdad
I just looked threw my LL rule book and couldn't find anything about throwing the bat.

I just got back into LL after 5 years away from it. (Not away from umpiring, just LL.) I specifically asked about the throwing the bat issue. At our local field they do not have an official policy other than what they interpret LL's to be. They told me that it is a safety issue and that a player slinging the bat dangerously should be ejected. For minor infractions, a team warning can be given first.

If that is the case, the play discussed at the start of this thread would have the out remain on the player at second and the batter runner that is now at first, ejected and replaced on first with a substitute.

BTW, my understanding of the scoring of original play, with the original call, is that the fielder closest to the infraction, the catcher in this case, would be credited with an unassisted putout. This would be similar to other plays where a person away from the ball is declared out. (Examples: a coach physically assisting a runner or players removing helmets in leagues where that is prohibited.)

[Dakota]

Originally posted by bethsdad
I have also "heard" the rule if you take your helmet off when not in the dugout you are out. I like ASA more all the time !

For ASA JO (i.e. youth) ball, a runner is out if she deliberately removes her helmet during a live ball play. The rule is ASA 3-5E. However, the rule does say, "Umpires should use discretion as to the intent of the rule concerning player safety."

This means, for example, that is a runner has just crossed home, and the ball is still in the outfield with other runners on base, that the runner should not be called out if she removes her helmet just before entering the dugout. The player is in no danger of being in the middle of a play, so safety was not an issue, so the rule should not be invoked.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Ejected?
Disqualified?
Out?

If a player is ejected, is an out necessarily called?
If a participant is disqualified, is an out also called?

Personally, any action by the offense that I felt was worthy of an ejection (like intentionally/deliberatly throwing the bat - FED-3-3-1r Penalty) has also resulted in an out. Is this wrong - can a player be ejected and then be replaced on the base? Essentially, not calling an out means no penalty to the team - only that the player can no longer participate. This sounds more like a disqualification than an ejection.

Also, FED 3-3-1b, ... shall not carelessly throw a bat; PENALTY: issue a team warning to the coach... next offender shall be restricted to the dugout (disqualified?) Is this where the Batter-runner would be replaced?

Somebody please explain. I rarely work at levels where anyone throws the bat... unless it is a deliberate act of anger.

The few ejections I have made, have been of defensive players and coaches, not bat throwers.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Jul 8th, 2003 at 09:48 AM]

[CecilOne]

First, we don't know which code was in use or whether the tourney had such a rule.
Second, I hope someone reported the spectating "umpire".
Third, at least three replies in this forum had personal rules or personal interpretations. If there was such a rule in force, the call was good. If not, a learning experience.
Fourth, if the dead ball call was made, it was made, nothing can happen, the "out" at 2nd did not occur, the runner returns to 1st and the BR is out. That would leave two outs.
Fifth, if there was not such a rule in force and the umpires then realize the mistake, they have to nullfy the effect and place the BR on 1st forcing all the other runners to the next base. That would leave one out.
Sixth, per Steve: "Keeping score is not my job, it's their job."

[whiskers_ump]

TOP,

If LL, I guess you could use Rule 9:01(d). [or at least it
was numbered this way in 02, don't have an 03 rule book]

(d) Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach,
manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsports
manlike conduct or language and to eject such disqualified
person from the playing field. "If an umpire disqualifies a player
while a play is in progress, the disqualification shall not take effect
until no further action is possible in that play." Answers your question about a "dead ball".
As for the scorekeeper, s/he are on their own as previoulsy stated
by Steve M.

glen