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Unrep Sub: Say Something or Stay Mum?
I worked an ASA tourney over the weekend, and I had a situation where I wasn't sure if I did the right thing by exercising a little preventive umpiring. The offense's DP reached base on a walk, and her head coach requested time to enter a substitute runner. The offense ended up batting around in the inning, and when the DP's slot came back up, the original DP came up to the plate.
Typically, I wouldn't notice when someone who isn't in the game enters to bat or play defense. But this DP was not a typical player. She stood about 6' 4" (I'm 5' 9") and had a huge pink bow holding her ponytail together. So when she came up, I recognized she was the player who was removed for a sub earlier in the inning. Rather than just letting her bat, I called Time and went over to her coach to inquire whether or not he was re-entering the starter. He had forgotten that he made the substitution, so he sent up the girl who ran for the DP, and we continued playing. Nobody from the opposing side said anything. Should I have kept quiet about the unreported substitution? Is that covered in any ASA guidance to umpires? |
My prediction ... half will say you did right, half will say you did wrong, and both sides will call the other side names. :)
Seriously, though, I have no problem with what you did. |
Crowder, you idiot, you're wrong! :D
I am going to take the other side, however. ASA 6-B: ...The use of an unreported substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is in the game. (emphasis mine) Since she is coming to bat, there is a potential opportunity for an out if the defense is paying attention. (6-C-3). It's not your job to remind the coach to report her back in the game. I believe this to be a different situation than preventing a coach from making an illegal substitution. In that case, the penalty is more severe, a disqualification as opposed to an out, at the most, for an unreported sub. |
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And to Andy's point, lets say the defense was paying attention and was planning to utilize (6-C-3) to get an out should she reach base? In your sitch, DC said nothing when you went over to the OC to inquire about the re-entry; but I'm sure you can imagine the possible ****house that could occur if the DC chose to make it an issue. |
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I also agree mbcrowder is an idiot... :D (So, how's this moderator stuff working out for you so far, Mike? ;)) |
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Batting out of order is clearly an Appeal Play by rule. The umpire is not allowed to bring to the attention of either team when he/she sees an improper batter at the plate. But the unreported substitution situation does not have the same restriction to do nothing until appealed as far as I know. And not all unreported substitution violations would result in an out. So do we say nothing for any/all types, or just those that would create an out when properly discovered? |
Rule 4-6-C-5 says
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The rule does not state any conditions about who brings it to the umpire's attention, or how it is brought to the umpire's attention, only that it is brought to his attention. In your situation, the player herself brought it to your attention by being physically distinctive. Personally, I wouldn't have intervened, but you do have that principle to hang your hat on. |
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But absent that guidance from ASA, and assuming that there is not one in place already; until such time that ASA provides us by rule, R/S, manual, or a specific directive from OKC, a procedure for handling this specific sitch, I'm handling it like a batting out of order sitch. I'd rather err that way than the other. JMO. |
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If the offended team catches it, great, if not, their loss..... |
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In other words, if I had let this batter bat and get on base, I could not call her out myself before the next pitch for being unreported. The defense would have had to protest the violation. That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion. |
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In your situation (and the one's I've mentioned), you do remain silent, as (as also mentioned before), you took away a play from the defense. Not to sound pithy, but do you need a directive from ASA/OKC to tell you NOT to intervene? Now, if you were playing under NFHS rules, the umpire CAN discover an unreported substitute/re-entry. At which point, you issue the team warning (if it is the first time). |
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As I already said, I would not intervene on an unreported substitute. Let the defense protest if they notice. And, I would not enter an illegal player on my lineup card without first telling the coach "you can't do that, coach." |
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I have been guilty of the same thing......it is not going to mean the end of the world.
I liked it when we did not allow illegal things to take place.....IJS. Joel |
Yes it does in my opinion
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Poor choice of words on ASA's part
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You Mean Like
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A. Misinterpretation of a playing rule.... B. Illegal Player C. Ineligible Player No where is an unreported sub listed as a protest in 9.1. In the definition and in rule 9.1 (both are just as much a part of the rule book as 4.6) this is not identified as a protest. ASA either needs to add unreported sub to 9.1 and change the definition or add unreported sub to the list of appeal plays. We are, however, arguing semantics. Whether we call it an appeal or a protest, I have no doubt that we will both enforce the rule correctly. I too go by the rule book. I just realize that the rule book is not perfect. It was written by man and we make mistakes. It would be no less perfect if I was the author! :) |
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Were's the fun in that! :)
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If this was an appeal, we have very specific instructions about when and how to handle appeals --- and I would STOP doing what I would do now, which is trying to prevent the situation from occurring if I notice it first. HOWEVER, if it is a protest - we are told to prevent any possible protestable events before they happen ... which is what I am doing now when I try to put the right player in place. But you're right that unreported sub is not REALLY specified as either, so based on which you feel it fits better and absent specific verbiage from ASA, you can justify either side of this argument. |
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Good Points
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IMHO, if you do it for one team, you must do it for the other team. Are you that good in recognizing all nine players and their substitutes on both teams? If you miss such an infraction by the other team, and it it properly appealed (protested), how are you going to rule? |
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If the crux of the issue is the preventing the opposing team from gaining an opportune out, then why are umpires told they should intervene to prevent illegal substitutions? Isn't an illegal batter who gets on base and is then appealed/protested/complained/whatever disqualified and called out? The only difference is the disqualification penalty. Wouldn't the out+disqualification be more of a benefit to the offended team than just the out? Look, I really can go either way with this. If the official guidance from OKC is that we must allow a substitute to play unreported if we happen to notice it, then so be it. But I prefer to consider it as preventive umpiring, no different than informing a coach when he/she is about to conduct his/her fourth defensive conference, "Coach, you do realize that you'll have to remove your pitcher with this one, right?" |
I've not been told that
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Illegal, but reported, substitutes are completely different from unreported substitutes. Why? Because if it is reported, the action IS brought to my attention AND if I don't tell the coach it is illegal, I am making an illegal entry into MY line up card. Not telling the coach makes me an accessory, so to speak, in his illegal action, and could make it appear that I was perhaps even setting him up.
The problem of me "self-notifying" about unreported substitutes is precisely BECAUSE I cannot detect all that may happen in this regard. Therefore, by self-reporting I am giving a player/team an advantage because they have players who are physically distinctive in some way, AND I leave myself open to a coach believing I am showing partiality. IOW, both are in effect preventative umpiring, even though the action by me is to intervene in one case and ignore it in another. |
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However, what if he is insistent on making the sub even if you clearly and explicitly inform him it is illegal? Are you going to allow it? Some would say no, because it is illegal and we should prevent it. Be careful with that approach. It should be all or nothing, in my opinion. Do we prevent every other illegal act? No. Do we prevent a runner from returning to a base left too soon when by rule it is illegal to do so? No. We just honor the dead ball appeal and call her out if warranted. The rule book says something is illegal but it doesn't say that we as umpires must physically prevent these illegal actions. We just rule on them when called upon to do so. Some would say that if the coach insists on making an illegal entry even after being explicitly informed of its illegality that he should be ejected for USC. I see their point and could defend it on the field. The coach would be playing against the spirit of the game. However, I use the second theory, which is either very subtly or very explicitly inform the coach the sub is not legal by rule. If he persists on making the sub, allow him because to do otherwise prevents the defense the opportunity to get an out. That's how I've been instructed to handle this situation. Of course the argument can be and probably has been made that the rule is there to catch those instances we missed. I agree but I also believe we must be consistent. If we are going to prevent something just because it is illegal, then we must do so in all cases. |
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For example. R1 on 1B leaves with the pitch. Fly ball to center filed caught for an out. Prior to reaching 2nd R1 stops, turns around and is on her way back to 1B when the throw goes over the 1B fence. The umpire waits to give the runner time to complete her base running responsibilities. R1 does not continue to first but instead turns and heads for 2nd. The umpire calls dead ball and awards her two bases. She touches 2nd and proceeds to 3rd, when the 3rd base coach says go back and touch 2nd and then 1B before coming back to 3rd. By rule once you have reached one base beyond the base left too soon and the ball has become dead, it is illegal by rule to return to the base left too soon. Are you as an umpire going to physically prevent this from happening even though by rule it is illegal? No different in my mind than preventing a coach from making an illegal substitution. We prevent them all or none and just rule on them when required to by rule. |
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It is not the same thing as making an illegal sub, IMO. I do understand your position on handling the illegal sub, however. I'm not sure about the subtle/coy comments to the coach (e.g. "are you sure you want to do that, coach") as opposed to the direct comment, "you can't do that, coach". Since I don't call college, what does the Narcissistic Coaches Admiration Association (NCAA ;)) say to do? |
yes it is
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I interpret "May not return" as being illegal as in "May not return to touch a base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball if....". And the reason she is in jeopardy of being called out is because it was, wait for it....., an illegal retouch. One not allowed by rule. One that is illegal. Quote:
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NCAA directs us to use preventative officiating to advise a coach that a lineup is innaccurate, or a substitution is illegal, and attempt to prevent it. But, if the coach insists, accept it, and let the opponent have the opportunity to take advantage.
Just as has been preached in most other associations. With respect to an unreported sub, that should be treated as an appeal play. Not reported to you, so you cannot comment on it until asked. |
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Speaking ASA To start, dead ball should be called when the ball enters DBT, not when a runner finishes running the bases. :rolleyes: However, the runner can touch whatever base they choose. What are you going to do, block the base path? Once the runner touches/passes an awarded base, s/he cannot return to touch a base missed or left too soon. While the rule notes this as an illegal act, you cannot rule the runner out for simply returning to touch a base when not permitted. The defense must still make the proper appeal and, but rule, that must be for the runner leaving the base too soon or missing it. |
wow!
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(If you disbelieve this, imagine a scenario where Susie leaves first base the moment a ball is caught, and all the other stuff in your scenario happens - she goes back and retouches 1st, even though she didn't have to... when they appeal at first, SHE IS NOT OUT.) |
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That's my point
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I'm applying the same logic to an unreported sub or illegal substitution. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean we prevent it. We allow it knowing that they are violating the rule and rule accordingly when called upon to do so. |
What?
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Ok, true, I misspoke or mistyped!
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The point I am making is there are other things that are illegal to do that we don't prevent. The same logic should apply to unreported subs and illegal subs. And this retouch is illegal. |
Guy it's a game not a life change moment nice job of keeping it in it's proper perspective that being the spirit of the game is what make it just that a game let them play.
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(,,,,,,,,,,,) (;;;; ) Here's some leftover punctuation, your keyboard seems to have run out. :) |
Lets take this a step farther and say you are using official scorekeepers...
1. The coach brings you a change and it is illegal and you know it, do you report it to the official score who now in turn tells you it is illegal, what do you do? Under above logic I take it you would tell her to be quiet. |
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In the OP, if there was an indication from a player or coach that something was askew, I will look into it. An example is something I had a few years ago. A player came to the plate that I didn't recall seeing bat before, but that is not unusual as I don't sit there and try to memorize the batting order. As the pitcher approached the PP, the catcher stood up and hollered, "new batter". I backed out from behind the plate and asked the batter if he just entered the game and recorded the proper substitution. The defense openly stated they were aware of a substitution and the batter had yet to put the ball into play or be retired. |
So why be different
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What "illegal" playing action do we EVER prohibit before the fact? |
I'm trying to think of an "illegal act" (ie: rule violation) that does not have a penalty or consequence attached to it.
Can't think of one... In the case of a runner going back to touch a missed/left early base when she's no longer entitled to correct her baseruinning error, I don't see that as being an illegal act. If she does go back, what is the penalty associated with doing that? There isn't one. Rather than being an illegal act/rule violation, I'd call this a moot act. Whether she goes back or not, it has no bearing on the play or the call. All that runner did was get a little extra exercise and some baserunning practice! |
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True but...
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BOO for instance. This is a rules violation, just like returning in the above scenario. Do we stop it from happening? Not in ASA. We are suppose to wait until requested to rule on it. Do we stop a running from returning? No. But we do honor the appeal if made. It all boils down to the rule book, which states "May not return". Can you think of a situation where an umpire would say to a player or coach "Player Y may not do X", where X is not a rules violation? |
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Batter about to enter the box with an illegal bat? |
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"Coach, Player Y may not wear her jersey on her legs, and her pants over her head." "Coach, Player Y may not come to the plate with two bats." "Coach, Player Y may not send text messages with her iPhone while in the outfield." Sorry, been a loooong week... :p |
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