Could someone aim me in the right direction on the rule against casual profanity? I officiate in Nebraska and I know we have a rule against it but cannot seem to find it in the ASA manual. Thanks, Dave

Not a rule in the ASA rulebook that I am aware of.....What level are you talking about?

In NCAA, Mens FP and Womens Open FP we tolerate a whole lot more than say 12-U.

In Nebraska I am pretty sure it is in all levels. They adopted it a few years ago. I believe it is an automatic out, even if there are three outs when it occurs, it will carry over to the next inning. Dave

I just found it in our Nebraska ASA 2003 Procedural Codes. Here is what it says, "The umpire has the authority to assess ONE OUT against the offending team for the use of CASUAL PROFANITY which shall be defined as expletives(Vulgar or Profane Language) not directed at umpires or opposing players, uttered by a player, manager/coach, on the field or individual within the dugout involved with the play of the team, frustrated with themselves, a teammate or fan. All outs will be assessed against the offending team during their term at bat. Only ONE "Casual Profanity" out may be assessed per play with a maximum of two (2) per term at bat. Incidents of vulgar or profane language exceeding these limits will subject the individuals responsible to ejection from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct. A player ejected from the game for exceeding these limits will not have a casual profanity out charged to the team. The Casual Profanity penalty "out" will be assessed as a team and will not affect any batter or base runner. For scoring purposes, the putout will be credited to the catcher. Dave

wow
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kid smacks one off his/her foot and say "****" or F$$$ or whatever, you gotta toss em? WOW!!!

Re: wow
 

No. As I read this, you charge the team with an out & the batter continues the time at bat.

Sorry, I don't buy into this type of rule, it's application or it's penalties.

This is just one more thing dumped on the umpire due to someone else's concern, but lack of willingness to control it. I have enough to do without being the language police on the ball field.

There is a local rule which gives the umpire the ability to "cool down" a player in these situations by DQing them for the game. You will not see me using that rule. I will often remind and/or request players and coaches to refrain from what "I" perceive as profanity, but if a player is behaving that poorly, I will eject them.

Such a rule is often open to a large range of interpretation by the umpire AND the opposing teams. You have people interjecting religious beliefs into the issue. Under a rule used in Richmond, VA. I once witnessed an umpire give the team at bat an extra out just for the pitcher using the word "god" after a line drive got by him. He uttered no other words than god. I was the on-deck batter and had no problem telling the umpire such an application was ridiculous even though my team benefitted from her ruling. Last I heard, this umpire was ASA President Frank Taylor's personal assitant. There's a real shock.

I've also heard players admonished for the use of damn, hell and even "gee's Louise".

I have better things to do than be arrogant enough to think that my beliefs should apply to all.

Then where do we draw the line, and should there be a standard?

Who would set that standard? George Carlin or Jerry Falwell? To loosely, very loosely paraphrase Burt Reynolds in Smokey and the Bandit, I all depends on where you are standing in this country which determines how smart you are. Same thing goes for what may be considered vulgar or profane and that can change from neighborhood to neighborhood.

I will always use ASA 10.9.A-C. If it's not directed at a coach, player or umpire, I'm not overly concerned about it. And many of you will disagree with this, but my job concerns the people inside the fence, not those in the stands.

One of my pet peeves in life are those who watch a particular TV show, attend a sporting event, opening a magazine knowing full well what is going to be heard and seen and then complaining about it as if the rest of the world should accommodate them alone.

I once had a player complain about another's language. I looked at this guy and reminded him that he has one of the filthiest mouths I have ever heard. He agreed, but his wife and kids were there that night and he wanted ME to control everyone else for something he does regularly. I told him if it happens, it wouldn't be my doing, but his. When I asked him how he felt about it when other player's families were there to hear him, he told me he didn't give a f*** about them, just his family.

Nope, I'm not getting into the middle of this type of crap. Got enough to do with controlling the game as it is without setting social standards for others.

Thank you.

SHEESH! If we had that here...thered be nobody left to play! Apparently everything else in Nebraska softball is just fine and dandy...

Theology vs. the infield fly
 

There's a strange little independent national association (calling it that gives it WAY much more dignity than it deserves) in Versailles, Ky. (and hey, we hillbillies pronounce that Ver-SALES, not ver-sigh) whose rules will toss a player for "g.d." but apparently doesn't care about other profanities. Like Mike, I'm uncomfortable with this -- just because some guy is head honcho we've all got to observe his little language quirks? Not that I'm encouraging people to belt out a string every time they pop up or fly out -- my 11-year-old daughter's often among the many children in the crowd.

But a game ain't a Sunday service and I'm not worried about their immortal souls. Even if I were, I don't happen to believe that there's a word or phrase you can say that's strong enough to put your soul in jeopardy. (which means being at the risk of being put out -- of heaven, presumably.) Jeez Louise, I can't even get the infield fly rule straight, don't ask me to interpret theology.

lol..fine and dandy in Nebraska? pretty sure we're the same as everyone else. most umpire's that I've worked with and played for don't enforce this rule. In fact I don't think that I've seen any umpire use this rule in a game. Maybe we're just too good at not getting caught...:D

Minnesota has a casual profanity rule. It seems to work. It makes the AA leagues a little more "family condusive". People can control what they say and that rule makes them have that control. A swear word uttered under the breath is one thing but a projectile is another.

That's fine if the players abide by it, but I'm not going to be the umpire who enforces it. I have a request. I would like you to define "swear word". And that's where part of my problem lies. What you consider a swear word in MN, may not be in NJ, NY or many other states, but may be in VA, GA or the Carolinas.

Oh, back to George Carlin again. :D

All I know is that people can take their 7 yr. old to a game and not have to have them listen to 35 yer old juveniles spew profanity because they made an out. It works. F--- and S--- are the main things it stops. Other than that it's pretty much ignored.

Mike are "Sh*t, F*ck, D*mn,and Godd*mn" swear words in DE?

Just wondering because in NJ, NE, IA, and even Madagascar they are!

profanity
 

Everyone of my games includes in the captains meeting a simple statement.

"Guys I don't put up with any swearing. There is women and kids here and if I hear anything I'll come to you and you better tell them to stop or they'll be gone."

Works real well, 8 out of 10 go over to the usual offenders and tell them to be carefull. Even if it happens I give a little leeway unless it's a loud f*** or loud anything. 9 years and I probably have thrown 10 -12 for cussing OTHER than at me.

I don't care what any of you say. If I have little league games or little kids around NOBODY is going to act like that on my field. I've have numerous parents come up and thank me because they heard my warning after the swearing.

Glen

[Edited by Glen G on Jul 12th, 2003 at 07:30 PM]

Re: profanity
 

Glen,

I'm sure you are committed to the league and the game and are probably a welcomed volunteer for LL. However, we aren't talking about youth games here. And, please note, it isn't YOUR field, it is the teams' field and game.

Re: Re: profanity
 

As someone who has been on construction sights all of my life and as someone who had a USMC Drill Instructor at OCS, I can assure you that I can use profanity with the best of them and do not get offended when I hear it under the right circumstances, i.e., construction sights (except when women are present), OCS, and when I am quaffing a few rootbeers with the guys.

Profanity has not place on a sports field, whether it is a youth game or an adult game. I include adult level games in my last statement is because more and more players have their families there watching the game.

I think that it is a sad commentary on society when we tolerate profanity around family in the name of letting off steam.

By the way, I am a fan of George Carlin fan and a anti-fan of Jerry Falwell.

to Irishmafia
 

Oh the LL slam, how big of you. You are wrong. I am responsible for all actions on MY field ( which are all adult games) when I walk on. It is the timid umps that let that type of behavior occur when the real reason the softball players are there is to play ball not be offensive to anyone.

Oh please correct me oh wise one. If they swear at you is that acceptable?

If it is not acceptable what gives you the right to say when and where they can swear?

Glen G

[Edited by Glen G on Jul 14th, 2003 at 05:21 PM]

Can we stop the women and kids and aged excuse? If it's offensive, it's offensive to them and to gentlemen, including players and others.

Re: to Irishmafia
 

Though the response wasn't addressed to me, I just wanted to say that I didn't take it as a slam. I do LL and when I'm there, I also do not allow the kids to "OH &*%#" when they pop up.

Why? Because when they hired me to umpire for their organization, they asked me not to.

When I have a slow pitch softball game with the "Hooter's Construction Workers" vs. the "AFL/CIO Beer Drinkers", they can say "that #*$*ing call is a piece of ^@%!" and I don't care.

Why? Because when they hired me to for umpire their organization, they asked me not to.

I have not yet purchased a softball field, nor am I in charge of an organization that owns, leases or borrows one. I find it best not to walk out on the field thinking it belongs to me.

When I am there, I recieve money (even my LL assignments) and thus I am working for them. My tasks are to be an impartial mediator and I am not there to enforce my views of what is or is not considered religiously moral/immoral or socially proper/improper.

Re: Re: to Irishmafia
 

Thank you.

It was not a slam at LL. I've been there and done that. I worked LL ball on the Philadelphia Naval Base 30 years ago while stationed there.

If it wasn't for umpires who do the volunteer work for LL, many kids would not get the opportunity to play. When I mentioned Glen's welcomed commitment, it was meant as a probably deserved compliment. Sadly, he didn't take it that way.

When in the path of a fielder returning to their position or a batter or runner to the dugout or a player moving to the plate to bat. I yield to the game participants as we all should. It is their game and their field. We are only there to help them provide a level playing field for an athletic contest.

A sports official is a person who should be in charge and control of an athletic contest, not in ownership.

Re: to Irishmafia
 

If you had been paying attention to the conversation and the subject line of this thread, you might realize we are not talking about someone making disparaging comments to or about another person.http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/flash.gif

Consider yourself corrected.

Funny graphic, Mike! :D

Anyway, I liked the response, above, that explained handling profanity (either enforcing a ban or ignoring it) from the perspective "they asked me to." IOW, we, as umpires, call the game according to the rules and guidelines of the organization putting on the contest.

It is no more "my" field than the game is called according to "my" rules. It is their field, and their rules.

The umbrella ASA organization for greater MN (excludes the cities of Mpls and St Paul) has a casual profanity rule. Rachel, who responded to this thread earlier, calls for that organization, as do I.

So far, I have issued 2 warnings to coaches and one "look" at 18U players for profanity (coaches were the S-bomb in response to missed plays; player was the F-bomb, as a response to a teammate who was giving her some grief about missing a fly ball.) Otherwise, the rule works well, to whatever extent the existance of the rule can be credited with profanity-free games. It's not a big deal to enforce. And Jerry Falwell never comes up.

Understand, I am talking about youth ball. I don't know how well it works for adult ball.

Re: Re: Re: to Irishmafia
 

Mafia man says:

When I mentioned Glen's welcomed commitment, it was meant as a probably deserved compliment. Sadly, he didn't take it that way.

"probably deserved compliment" What in the world does that mean? More indecision, no wonder they have the run of "their" field.

Mafia man says:

When in the path of a fielder returning to their position or a batter or runner to the dugout or a player moving to the plate to bat. I yield to the game participants as we all should. It is their game and their field.

I don't have rabbit ears but will continue to have the game played as a recreational game, not an opportunity to have others vent their childish frustrations out on innocent spectators and players.


Mafia Man says:

A sports official is a person who should be in charge and control of an athletic contest, not in ownership.

Well said, "In charge" were the key words. When I say my field I'm not the type that makes up my own rules etc. I strictly follow park district rules which each and every one of them state NO FOUL LANGUAGE!


ps:

I don't need or desire to "stand corrected by you!"

Glen G

[Edited by Glen G on Jul 15th, 2003 at 05:34 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: to Irishmafia
 

Glen,

You might want to check out this site.

http://www.gmcgriff.com

Mike,

Excellent Call. Heck he and BDB will get along great.

glen

Glen G

You didn't ask for my advice, but I hope you will accept it in the spirit offered.

My old man had a favorite saying: "never put your mouth in motion until your brain is in gear." From the number of posts, it seems as though you are relatively new here. Sit back, read, determine who's who in the board hierarchy, learn. For if nothing else, this is a great place to learn. But we learn with our eyes and ears, not our mouth.

You will discover that we argue with each other; we strongly defend our positions; we disagree. But - we don't call names and we don't get into flaming/slamming, etc.
You came out firing today, and you were wrong. The rest of us are here to learn, and to share experiences. Not to fight.

WMB