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RKBUmp Thu Jul 26, 2012 04:21pm

Taking the signal
 
Taking the signal has been discussed fairly recently on a couple of other sites. Just now watching some Gold pool games and came across this. Opinions on legal or illegal pitch? Excuse some of the jumping on screen, was trying not to have a whole bunch of unneeded video.

pitching - YouTube

MNBlue Thu Jul 26, 2012 04:28pm

I can't tell - is she bringing her hands together or is she just hiding the ball from the batter to hide her grip. If it is the latter and the hands aren't together, I've got nothing.

MD Longhorn Thu Jul 26, 2012 04:33pm

I'm not sure what MN means there (MN - she's SUPPOSED to put her hands together - and there's no double touch after that... if she's not in the glove and is just hiding her hand, then she never does come together!), but I see nothing remotely illegal here. Pretty standard pitching. And definitely not quick pitching (which is what "taking the signal from the catcher" is about in reality).

PS - I think the runner was safe at 2nd!!

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 26, 2012 04:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 850003)
I'm not sure what MN means there (MN - she's SUPPOSED to put her hands together - and there's no double touch after that... if she's not in the glove and is just hiding her hand, then she never does come together!), but I see nothing remotely illegal here. Pretty standard pitching. And definitely not quick pitching (which is what "taking the signal from the catcher" is about in reality).

PS - I think the runner was safe at 2nd!!

Agree the call at 2nd looks questionable :rolleyes:

But what first drew my attention was the PU coming out through the RH BB. ;)

Really couldn't tell if the pitch was legal or not, but from what little I could see it didn't seem like she spent any time on the PP with her hands separated.

RKBUmp Thu Jul 26, 2012 04:58pm

This is what I have been seeing more and more of. The pitcher taking the signal back behind the pitching plate which is perfectly legal, but then stepping on and immediately bringing the hands together. An inning later she was even worse than this, bases were loaded and hands were already coming together as she was stepping on.

jwwashburn Thu Jul 26, 2012 05:26pm

I have seen more of this style this year, as well.

The hands are not at her side when she steps on and they are coming together quickly

The fact that she does hold them together and is clearly not quick pitching makes it ok in my mind but, I am not sure I should have this opinion.

Thoughts?

RKBUmp Thu Jul 26, 2012 05:55pm

Agree that she is making no attempt to quick pitch, however, 8-1-D clearly states they must take or simulate taking a signal with the hands separated.

Jake26 Thu Jul 26, 2012 08:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 850008)
But what first drew my attention was the PU coming out through the RH BB. ;)

And does ASA have a holding zone in front of the circle?

RadioBlue Fri Jul 27, 2012 07:45am

I had a pitcher who was very similar (although much shorter time interval from the time she stepped on to the time of delivery) earlier this year. I called her for an IP a couple of times because in those instances, her hands appeared to come together as she stepped on. After the second or third one, the coach came out to say her hands aren't together. I explained that from where the batter and I am, it appears they are together and the purpose of the rule requiring a pitcher to step on with their hands separated is to avoid a quick pitch.

On this pitcher in the video, I don't think I would call her on it. The difference being (at least in the examples in the video), her hands are separate for a split second when she steps on and she takes plenty of time before beginning any movement. Is it technically an IP? Yes. Would I call it? Not from what I've seen.

MNBlue Fri Jul 27, 2012 08:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 850003)
I'm not sure what MN means there (MN - she's SUPPOSED to put her hands together - and there's no double touch after that... if she's not in the glove and is just hiding her hand, then she never does come together!), but I see nothing remotely illegal here. Pretty standard pitching. And definitely not quick pitching (which is what "taking the signal from the catcher" is about in reality).

PS - I think the runner was safe at 2nd!!

I apologize - I wasn't very clear with my statement.

From the video, I can't tell if she is bringing her hands together and then simulating taking the sign or if she is putting the glove in front of her pitching hand to prevent the batter from seeing the ball and how she is gripping the ball.

If she is just hiding her grip and she does bring her hands together prior to delivering the ball, she is legal. When pitchers do this, sometimes it is very difficult to tell if their hands are separated or if they are together. My belief is that if we don't know she is illegal, then she is legal.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 850060)
I apologize - I wasn't very clear with my statement.

From the video, I can't tell if she is bringing her hands together and then simulating taking the sign or if she is putting the glove in front of her pitching hand to prevent the batter from seeing the ball and how she is gripping the ball.

If she is just hiding her grip and she does bring her hands together prior to delivering the ball, she is legal. When pitchers do this, sometimes it is very difficult to tell if their hands are separated or if they are together. My belief is that if we don't know she is illegal, then she is legal.

Though I do NOT want to get into the "presenting the ball" discussion, remember the reason the rule is in place. It is to give the batter a procedure to know when to prepare for the pitch. The prelude to the pitch includes taking a position with the hands separated, bringing the hands together. Only then can the pitch start when the hands separate.

No matter what the reason, the first part of that isn't evident to the two who need to see it, the batter and umpire.

And when on the plate and see what appears to be the hands together, do we permit that even though one may be behind the other and not together?

As I've told players before, if you fooled the other guy, you probably fooled me, too, but it is my judgment that counts ;)

ronald Sun Jul 29, 2012 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake26 (Post 850027)
And does ASA have a holding zone in front of the circle?

no they do not but the almost all umpires at the gold were college umps too. i was the only one who was probably not. i did not talk to all of em but to the ones i did, they did college ball.

ronald Sun Jul 29, 2012 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 850060)
I apologize - I wasn't very clear with my statement.

From the video, I can't tell if she is bringing her hands together and then simulating taking the sign or if she is putting the glove in front of her pitching hand to prevent the batter from seeing the ball and how she is gripping the ball.

If she is just hiding her grip and she does bring her hands together prior to delivering the ball, she is legal. When pitchers do this, sometimes it is very difficult to tell if their hands are separated or if they are together. My belief is that if we don't know she is illegal, then she is legal.

this was called a few times in the games i umped. the 3rd base ump called it in my plate game. forgot to discuss this in post game but the evaluator did not make an issue of it when the 3rd base ump explain his illegal pitch call.

Big Slick Mon Jul 30, 2012 09:36am

That appears to be one fine plate umpire.

DaveASA/FED Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronald (Post 850318)
no they do not but the almost all umpires at the gold were college umps too. i was the only one who was probably not. i did not talk to all of em but to the ones i did, they did college ball.

You weren't the only one that doesn't do college out there. I know of at least two others that do not umpire college ball that were there!

IRISHMAFIA Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED (Post 850382)
You weren't the only one that doesn't do college out there. I know of at least two others that do not umpire college ball that were there!

I'm trying to figure out the relevance of whether the umpire works college ball or not.

CecilOne Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 850404)
I'm trying to figure out the relevance of whether the umpire works college ball or not.

ditto

CecilOne Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 850376)
That appears to be one fine plate umpire.

I just wish "mask on" came before "step in". :eek:

DaveASA/FED Mon Jul 30, 2012 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 850404)
I'm trying to figure out the relevance of whether the umpire works college ball or not.

As am I....just was clarifying that not all the umpires there umpired college there were a couple ASA/FED guys hiding there!

Big Slick Mon Jul 30, 2012 02:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 850404)
I'm trying to figure out the relevance of whether the umpire works college ball or not.

There was a statement made about "holding zones." As was relayed by the staff, when all three umpires are "in" (meaning no umpire chased), there "is no holding zone" (the quotes here reflect an actual quote). Therefore, (as not demonstrated in the video) with no runners on or a runner on first: on a base hit, the PU trails the BR, then should take a position at third. No holding zone, just calling position.

NCAA mechanics allow the PU to utilize the holding zone in front of the circle for the same play.

CecilOne Mon Jul 30, 2012 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 850460)
There was a statement made about "holding zones." As was relayed by the staff, when all three umpires are "in" (meaning no umpire chased), there "is no holding zone" (the quotes here reflect an actual quote). Therefore, (as not demonstrated in the video) with no runners on or a runner on first: on a base hit, the PU trails the BR, then should take a position at third. No holding zone, just calling position.

NCAA mechanics allow the PU to utilize the holding zone in front of the circle for the same play.

What about the "route" getting there, through the RHB or left of catcher?

Big Slick Mon Jul 30, 2012 03:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 850462)
What about the "route" getting there, through the RHB or left of catcher?

That's also an "NCAA thing" as it doesn't matter. I can assure you this plate umpire is getting on with age and has lost a step or two (but can cut quite the rug under the right circumstances). ASA's clarified position is not through any particular batter's box, just to the left of the catcher. If the catcher moves up the line, you could go through the RHBB.

IRISHMAFIA Mon Jul 30, 2012 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 850465)
That's also an "NCAA thing" as it doesn't matter. I can assure you this plate umpire is getting on with age and has lost a step or two (but can cut quite the rug under the right circumstances). ASA's clarified position is not through any particular batter's box, just to the left of the catcher. If the catcher moves up the line, you could go through the RHBB.

Well, to me, the RHBB is just a matter of some lines in the dirt and is more of an issue in SP than fast. I think the key is to avoid getting caught up with the catcher, or as a snappy rug-cutter, the batter-runner leaving the plate area.

MD Longhorn Mon Jul 30, 2012 04:45pm

What am I missing ... the RHBB IS to the left of the catcher...

IRISHMAFIA Mon Jul 30, 2012 05:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 850481)
What am I missing ... the RHBB IS to the left of the catcher...


But so is the plate and LHBB if the catcher is chasing the runner.

ronald Mon Jul 30, 2012 06:50pm

They seem to be the ones who have issues with asa 's way of doing things. I guess i made an jack without realizing it.

One of the guys bit his tongue as he went to the three umpire mechanic manual and says it reads holding zone a few times. He even stated the words are use in the dad in the3 pump section.

ronald Mon Jul 30, 2012 06:52pm

Good not to be the lone wolf:)

IRISHMAFIA Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronald (Post 850503)
They seem to be the ones who have issues with asa 's way of doing things. I guess i made an jack without realizing it.

One of the guys bit his tongue as he went to the three umpire mechanic manual and says it reads holding zone a few times. He even stated the words are use in the dad in the3 pump section.

From the ASA February Clarifications:


Umpire Manual Fixes
In the 2012 Umpire Manual there is a wording mistake in the Three Umpire System in a few sections. These are, with a runner on 2B only, 1B and 2B, 2B and 3B and Bases Loaded in the sections of Ground Ball to the Infield, and Base Hit to the Outfield. The verbiage used in the Umpire Manual for the movement of the Plate Umpire in these situations is “Move out from behind the plate toward the “holding zone” in foul ground and read the play. As we all know there is no holding zone in a Three Umpire System so the wording could be misleading. It was originally used to describe the plate umpire moving out toward 3B or what we refer to as the holding zone. In these situations the DVD says, “The Plate Umpire should move out from behind the plate and read the play.” These are the words that will be changed in the 2013 Umpire Manual.

AtlUmpSteve Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 850476)
Well, to me, the RHBB is just a matter of some lines in the dirt and is more of an issue in SP than fast. I think the key is to avoid getting caught up with the catcher, or as a snappy rug-cutter, the batter-runner leaving the plate area.

To me, the only distinction is that a lot of clinicians (yep, me included) urge umpires to go to the left around the RHBB; NOT because you might interfere with the catcher, but because batters often dig enough out of the batters' box to leave a hole where the PU can turn an ankle.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jul 31, 2012 06:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 850531)
To me, the only distinction is that a lot of clinicians (yep, me included) urge umpires to go to the left around the RHBB; NOT because you might interfere with the catcher, but because batters often dig enough out of the batters' box to leave a hole where the PU can turn an ankle.

You mean your fields aren't perfect, either? Yes, in that case a wider route is even available, but IMO never at the cost of not seeing the play which is why I don't have a problem coming across the plate, IF NECESSARY.

ronald Sat Aug 04, 2012 05:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 850526)
From the ASA February Clarifications:
Thanks mike

Umpire Manual Fixes
In the 2012 Umpire Manual there is a wording mistake in the Three Umpire System in a few sections. These are, with a runner on 2B only, 1B and 2B, 2B and 3B and Bases Loaded in the sections of Ground Ball to the Infield, and Base Hit to the Outfield. The verbiage used in the Umpire Manual for the movement of the Plate Umpire in these situations is “Move out from behind the plate toward the “holding zone” in foul ground and read the play. As we all know there is no holding zone in a Three Umpire System so the wording could be misleading. It was originally used to describe the plate umpire moving out toward 3B or what we refer to as the holding zone. In these situations the DVD says, “The Plate Umpire should move out from behind the plate and read the play.” These are the words that will be changed in the 2013 Umpire Manual.

t

Thanks mike


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