Appeal goes wrong

[umpire12]

good point...not interpreting their own manual's mechanics correctly weakens their argument against an alternative set of mechanics. its probable that most of the naysayers never even worked in an association that prescibes the modern mechanics. not having an on the job comparison makes their point moot

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by umpire12

good point...not interpreting their own manual's mechanics correctly weakens their argument against an alternative set of mechanics. its probable that most of the naysayers never even worked in an association that prescibes the modern mechanics. not having an on the job comparison makes their point moot

You are not the first one to make this argument (I think this comes up about once a year), so I'll give you the quick rehash.

ASA's mechanics are not 'old', they are designed to be a easy, standard reference for the wide variety of abilities within the ranks of ASA umpiring. They were to be the first group to publish a mechanics manual. The mechanics also span multiple versions of softball, including slow pitch (16" and 12"), fast pitch and modified.

With that being said, the ASA may have an issue with changing, but that is not to say they have never changed. For example, in slow pitch 2-umpire, BU is never on the line. Likewise, the heel-toe plate stance was not the first one advocated and taught by the ASA. So you see, ASA can change when they feel the change is for the good "of their game." (I really stress that last part, maybe using "brand" in lieu of "game").

Now, you are addressing the "inside/outside" theory with what you are defining as "the modern mechanics." To be clear, I don't think any organization "prescribes" you to stay outside. NCAA (who basically first to allow) doesn't "prescribe" you stay outside; it is an OPTION. If you are referring to PONY (which I am not a member), my understanding is that staying outside is also an OPTION (my belief is the PONY manual was created from the NCAA manual). Realize that the NCAA and PONY manual focus only only on fast pitch mechanics. The NCAA manual was also created with a certain level of umpire in mind, an advanced level that would probably equate to 2% - 5% of the ASA's umpire population.

The ASA is abreast of different organizations and the options/differences in mechanics. They did a presentation of mechanic differences in 2011 (you can view the powerpoint on the ASA website). Topics included inside/outside theory, plate stances (let me guess, you use the Gerry Davis?), and coverage of first base in a three umpire system. Is that to say that I agree with all their positions? Sometimes, the ASA and I are at odds in philosophy, but I can understand their point. Their mechanics aren't about me, 1 umpire in over 22,000. Their mechanics are for all the 22,000.

Look, we are all in this together, so my advice is to "live and let live." Work the mechanics in the organization that is on your hat/shirt/ball bag, etc (and what your UIC wants). There is value in both points of view (while there are negatives as well). And you don't want to get in a battle with Irish, he is old and stubborn enough to not give up (not to mention that he has the best buttonhook on the Eastern Seaboard).

As for the original play, in ASA/Fed play, BU would have the tag of R1 (from inside the diamond), and if the ball is caught, take the runner into third. If the ball is dropped, PU would have the runner at third. For NCAA 2-umpire (or 3-umpire with a umpire chasing), the tag would be the remaining base umpire (inside or outside the diamond) and the throw the third would belong to PU. I'm unaware how U-trip, PONY, NSA, TCS or PGF cover this play, those are not organizations in which I am familiar.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Look, we are all in this together, so my advice is to "live and let live." Work the mechanics in the organization that is on your hat/shirt/ball bag, etc (and what your UIC wants). There is value in both points of view (while there are negatives as well). And you don't want to get in a battle with Irish, he is old and stubborn enough to not give up (not to mention that he has the best buttonhook on the Eastern Seaboard).

And you know why? Because I'm off with the batted ball. And I find that to be a problem with many umpires who fight the I/O. Just call me Flash!

Big, as usual, you are right, every year a new group coming in thinking they have just discovered the C-fold towel or sliced bread. I was working a rim at and ASA Major NC more than a decade ago and the key is the crew.

I was also working something similar to what they now call the GD in 1966. Difference was working with a balloon which meant only resting the right hand on the leg. Also, tried the scissors a couple different years to change it up a little, but always ended up with back issues.

As for the original play, in ASA/Fed play, BU would have the tag of R1 (from inside the diamond), and if the ball is caught, take the runner into third. If the ball is dropped, PU would have the runner at third. For NCAA 2-umpire (or 3-umpire with a umpire chasing), the tag would be the remaining base umpire (inside or outside the diamond) and the throw the third would belong to PU

BS, little twist on this play. Let's put the catch on the RF line. What are the responsibilities now?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

BS, little twist on this play. Let's put the catch on the RF line. What are the responsibilities now?

"When you deviate, you communicate." There is not one mechanics manual that covers every situation; actually it would be impossible to draw out every possible play. Unfortunately, too many umpire want to live in a world of "which spot do I go to when X happens" (I think we even saw this in the thread already). Mechanics are not about X's and O's, it is about concepts. Therefore, to answer your little twist: If I'm PU, I'm communicating to my partner that I've got additional responsibilities (fair/foul); if I'm BU, I'm listening for my partner and (even in a game with an ASA evaluator) I may stay outside for a better angle.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Now, you are addressing the "inside/outside" theory with what you are defining as "the modern mechanics." To be clear, I don't think any organization "prescribes" you to stay outside. NCAA (who basically first to allow) doesn't "prescribe" you stay outside; it is an OPTION. If you are referring to PONY (which I am not a member), my understanding is that staying outside is also an OPTION (my belief is the PONY manual was created from the NCAA manual). Realize that the NCAA and PONY manual focus only only on fast pitch mechanics. The NCAA manual was also created with a certain level of umpire in mind, an advanced level that would probably equate to 2% - 5% of the ASA's umpire population.

As for the original play, in ASA/Fed play, BU would have the tag of R1 (from inside the diamond), and if the ball is caught, take the runner into third. If the ball is dropped, PU would have the runner at third. For NCAA 2-umpire (or 3-umpire with a umpire chasing), the tag would be the remaining base umpire (inside or outside the diamond) and the throw the third would belong to PU. I'm unaware how U-trip, PONY, NSA, TCS or PGF cover this play, those are not organizations in which I am familiar.

Just to note, the PONY manual was not created from the NCAA manual. Believe it or not, PONY does have slow pitch, but it is still youth slow pitch and it barely exists anymore.

PONY has the plate umpire cover third base with a sole runner on 2nd, whether the ball is caught or not. Why ASA would distinguish between a caught and a non-caught ball is beyond me. Obviously, if it isn't caught, the base umpire will have BR, leaving R2 to the plate umpire. But why not just leave R2 with the plate umpire even when it is caught? The plate umpire is just standing there. Now, if the ball is down the line and fair/foul is an issue, then the base umpire may need to pick up R2. But that may be necessary whether the ball is caught or not.

If running doesn't get you in a more advantageous position, stop running. It's foolish.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

(Snip) Now, if the ball is down the line and fair/foul is an issue, then the base umpire may need to pick up R2. But that may be necessary whether the ball is caught or not.

(Snip)

This issue also comes up with a ball down the right field line and R1 (at 3rd).
Fair/Foul, catch and Tag-up at 3rd and be a difficult call for PU.
Several of my partners and I COMMUNICATE that BU will help with the tag-up at 3rd and "bust-in" (if using the ASA mechanic) a lttle slower to be able to pick-up up R1's tag-up

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

This issue also comes up with a ball down the right field line and R1 (at 3rd).
Fair/Foul, catch and Tag-up at 3rd and be a difficult call for PU.
Several of my partners and I COMMUNICATE that BU will help with the tag-up at 3rd and "bust-in" (if using the ASA mechanic) a lttle slower to be able to pick-up up R1's tag-up

I had a similar one in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. Lone runner on 3B and a semi-line drive to right-center w/ 2 fielders converging. F8 got there first and had the ball in the glove, then a collision w/ both fielders going a$$ over tea-kettle. I'm still watching to see if there is a catch. Finally determined there was.

Then the appeal on the runner leaving early from third. I didn't see it. Asked partner who told me it was my call. Thanx, pard. Safe! No clue if she left early or not.

Had to eat that one.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

"When you deviate, you communicate." There is not one mechanics manual that covers every situation; actually it would be impossible to draw out every possible play. Unfortunately, too many umpire want to live in a world of "which spot do I go to when X happens" (I think we even saw this in the thread already). Mechanics are not about X's and O's, it is about concepts. Therefore, to answer your little twist: If I'm PU, I'm communicating to my partner that I've got additional responsibilities (fair/foul); if I'm BU, I'm listening for my partner and (even in a game with an ASA evaluator) I may stay outside for a better angle.

I tried for simple, let me try a little harder. Who would have fair/foul call and, in a 2-umpire game, call at 3B?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I tried for simple, let me try a little harder. Who would have fair/foul call and, in a 2-umpire game, call at 3B?

So what? Just deviate and communicate in that circumstance. You don't create a poor mechanic or keep a poor mechanic because of one specific and not-so-common play. Get real.