Girls fast pitch - 14U....not sure if it is ASA or Nat'l. Fed.:

After a better is walked she runs down to first base. Never hesitating at first, she runs on to second base. When I first saw it, I thought "hmmmm...good play". Runner on third had our team's attention. After the game a couple of parents come up and ask how that runner can get to second when our pitcher had the ball inside the circle chalked around the mound.

My assumption is since the batter/runner never stopped, the play could not have ended - regardless of where the ball was. Am I correct?

Along the same lines -- I had another parent tell me that he heard once that batter/runner turns to second base and makes a commitment she is required to go to second. I don't believe that is correct....is it?

The wording is a little different between ASA and FED, but the concept is the same. In your situation, the batter/runner can round first base by a step or two, stop if she wishes and see where the ball is, and then immediately return to first or proceed to second. Once she makes that choice of proceeding or returning, she cannot change her mind as long as the pitcher has the ball in the circle and it not making a play on her.

If she rounds first and proceeds to second without stopping within a couple of steps of first, she has "committed" herself towards second.

In FED, there was a rule wording change last year that states the batter runner may stop once. Some interpret this to mean that they can stop once anywhere along the path before deciding to return to first, e.g. she could be three inches from second, stop and decide she wanted to return to first. My belief is that this interpretation is incorrect and that the stop must occur within a step or two of first base. I would not be surprised if there is a clarification of this in the next rule and/or case book.

By the way, if you access to a rule book, just review the section on the "Look Back Rule" for detailed information.

Dan, so are you saying that one the runner is commited to second she HAS to run? If so, it seems pretty lopsided in the defense's favor. All a team would have to do is wait until the runner commits and then throw to second.

I don't have access to a rulebook...I understand the officiating philosophy because I have done football for 18 years, and did basketball for 9. I'm assisting in coaching a softball team and want to make sure I'm teaching the kids the right thing.

"All a team would have to do is wait until the runner commits and then throw to second."

Once the pitcher throws, or feints, the runner(s) is/are released from the commitment.

Bob

If I remember correctly, NFHS rules define specifically what thet BR can do after overrunning 1st. If the BR feints or attempts toward 2nd, then 2nd is the only choice. If the BR turns right or turns left and moves toward 1st, then 1st is the only choice.

But this was not the situation in the original post. There is a big difference between overrunning 1st base and rounding 1st base.

I agree with Bob (bluezebra). Sorry I did not state that part. If you really want to teach the girls correctly, you might want to get a copy of the rule book for the organization you call.

The only one I know that is available online is NSA and is very similar to other organizations. It can be found at http://www.playnsa.com. The rule you were asking about is Rule 8 Sec 8 (x), which is on page 100 of that rule book, i.e. page 127 of 156 of the PDF file at the web site.

SC: "The wording is a little different between ASA and FED, but the concept is the same. In your situation, the batter/runner can round first base by a step or two,"

#1 There is zero difference between the ASA and NFHS book. Both say "a batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but then must immediately return to first or attempt to advance non-stop to second base."

#2 There is a difference between "rounding" first base and "over-running" first base. Rounding means that the B-R has run wide and hit 1B going towards 2B. There is no stop in that motion. Over-run means to continue down the foul line towards RF. When the B-R pulls up to turn back towards the infield, she has stopped. ASA and NFHS have four rules to define the actions on an over-run; again both books have identical text.

SC: "If she rounds first and proceeds to second without stopping within a couple of steps of first, she has "committed" herself towards second."

#3 NOT TRUE. There is nothing in these two books that defines any physical dimensions for a stop. That is not a rule; is not an umpire judgment; only a B-R (or runner) will decide when and where to stop. When the B-R rounds 1B without stopping, IMO she can go to within 6" of 2B and stop! Then make a decision to continue non-stop to 2B, or return (also non-stop) to 1B.

Always remember that a runner or B-R is allowed one stop after F1 receives the ball in the circle. If F2 fakes R1 back to 3B, and R1 is proceeding towards 3B when F1 receives the ball, then R1 can stop one time - and then either continue back to 3B, or go towards home.

When a B-R reaches 1B, and F1 has the ball, and B-R rounds 1B, she is allowed one stop somewhere between 1B and 2B. When a B-R reaches 1B, and F1 has the ball, and B-R over-runs 1B she may stop 2' down the line, or may go 30' into RF (and say hi to F9)! No umpire has the authority to judge for themselves when or where a runner must stop.

WMB

Don't mean to change the subject, but I'm going to.

How bout in SP? Our league makes us call time after the play ends, but when does a play end? Where does the ball have to be? I wait until an infielder is in the infield dirt with possession of the ball and all runners have stopped their forward motion before I call time. Thoughts?

Thanks.

When does the play end in slow pitch
 

BigUmpJohn

I agree with you 100% this is a judgement call, and I alsway call it as you stated, when an infielder has possesion of the ball and the lead runner is no longer trying to advance the play is then dead and I will usually call TIME to let all players now that the ball is dead. This also allows me time to get back into position to continue the game.

Animal/Bruce

I have no disagreements with your items #1 or #2. (I don't do ASA and haven't looked at an ASA rule book since 1994. I was sure the wording for ASA would be similar to FED, but I am surprised to hear the wording is <i><b>exactly</b></i> the same. I wonder who has the copyright and who has plagerized.)

Concerning your item #3 and as I mentioned in my original post:

"In FED, there was a rule wording change last year that states the batter runner may stop once. Some interpret this to mean that they can stop once anywhere along the path before deciding to return to first, e.g. she could be three inches from second, stop and decide she wanted to return to first. My belief is that this interpretation is incorrect and that the stop must occur within a step or two of first base. I would not be surprised if there is a clarification of this in the next rule and/or case book."

If you have heard of a clarification coming out, it would be great to know where that could be found.

The play ends when the umpire says it ends.

"My belief is that this interpretation is incorrect and that the stop must occur within a step or two of first base"

Dan, I know what your position on this is, because you were in the midst of a fierce debate on McGriff's about 16 mo ago when we were first discussing the new NFHS Rule 8. There were many that agreed with you in setting an arbitrary distance for the B-R to come to a stop. Some went so far as to say it was a mental stop; that after a couple steps the B-R would look at F1, find the ball, and stop in her mind! Then if she continues running she is committed to 2B. Oh yeah, try to sell that call to a coach that you "read his runner's mind!"

But as then, I still disagree with your intepretation. I don't think that an umpire can define when a runner "stopped" if she is still physically moving. The runner has to physically stop; the umpire can't stop her in his mind.

NFHS is now in the 2nd year of new rule 8, and ASA has had it for many years. I am not aware of any clarification about an arbitrary distance clarification for "may stop."

WMB

Agree, WMB. Although the "6 inches from 2nd" example is the absurd used to drive home the point, the point is correct. She may continue moving until she stops. Once she stops, she must immediately decide which direction to go, and go there without another stop. This, of course, is all under the "rounding" scenario. Overrunning is more complicated and different.

"Although the "6 inches from 2nd" example is the absurd used to drive home the point, the point is correct"

Agreed, Tom. If I have R1 at 3B, less than 2 outs, and a walked B-R is just barely walking to 2B, wanting a throw, then stops 6" short and starts slowly back to 1B, I probably have an out for USC - "behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play." But I don't have an out under the LB rule.

WMB

The book says infield area, not dirt, not infielder.

Correct about LB; but I don't know about UC and softball doesn't have a delay of game rule for runners.

There was no fierce debate on my part. And here I merely posted my opinion since the question was asked, not in an attempt to have you begin your diatribe again, nor to rehash what some other persons unknown perhaps did or did not say in a conversation on a different board a year and a half ago.

If you have no problems allowing the stop to occur anywhere along the line, and if that is good in your association, go for it. If your association doesn't consider a stop 3/4's of the way to second with the runner then returning to first as being "running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game", then cool beans with me.
I do not do ASA. The folks around her that do tell me that ASA teaches that the stop must occur within one or two steps of rounding first. Mike, is it your understanding that ASA allows the stop to occur anywhere along the path between first and second, even half way or perhaps over half way?

[Edited by SC Ump on Jul 1st, 2003 at 09:57 PM]

Ok, then. What does that mean? What is the "infield area"? Is that the dirt or near the bases? I know it doesn't have to be an infielder--that was a mistake on my part. I meant any fielder. But what is the infield area?

ASA 8.7.T.3.a: "A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but then must immediatedly return to first or attempt to advance non-stop to second base."

The only concern is the stop off the base while the pitcher controls the ball in the circle. Doesn't mention where the stop takes place between the bases, nor does it prescribe a certain distance to the umpire anywhere in the POE or Clinic Guide.

My opinion is there is no reason to interject personal belief into a rule when it is not necessary or prescribed.

My understanding is anywhere close enough to the bases to negate the runners chance to advance, as long as "all runners have stopped their forward motion".

First, this rule does not say it is illegal to run the bases in reverse order. Otherwise, any runner caught in a rundown would be immediately out.

The key phrase here is "to make a travesty of the game."

Would your runner above be guilty of that? Well, maybe, but not just because the runner went more than 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5 or pick your arbitrary number) of steps from 1st base.

It would be because s/he was engaging in some kind of taunting - daring an unskilled defense to try to throw her out, etc.

Example: batter hits a home run. Runs all the way to 3/4 between 3rd and home, and then decides to reverse and run the bases in reverse order. <big><b>That</b></big> is making a travesty of the game.

Merely taking a step (or 5) "too far" (according to your opinion) is not.

That and your mention of the "taunting" aspect is my understanding and also specifically why I referred to this in this discussion.

My understanding on this rule and its history was that it was put in place because somewhere in baseball's past, there would be runners on 1st and 3rd, and the runner at 1st would steal 2nd on one pitch, "steal" 1st on the next pitch, "steal" 2nd again on the following, then "steal" 1st again, etc., all in an attempt to instigate a throw from the catcher.

Getting a bit closer to the rule's purpose
 

My understanding of this rule...

Coach's perspective: Runner at 3rd. BR is walked and proceeds past 1st toward 2nd and stops. Purpose? To draw a play by the defense on the BR/R1 so that R3 can score prior to an out being made on R1 between 1st and 2nd. Run counts!

Umpire's perspective: It is a live ball situation. Pitcher must control ball within the circle (one foot on or inside the circle). R1 is allowed to round 1st and stop but then must immediately either proceed to 2nd or return to 1st. Stopping at any position between the bases is okay. Unless the pitcher makes a play, the runner cannot change directions or stop again. Once the pitcher initiates a play (raises the arm to throw or makes some kind of a feint) then regular base running rules are in effect and runner can stop or change directions as needed to avoid the tag-out. The runner is not allowed to stand off the base waiting for the pitcher to make a play or to change directions back and forth towards 1st and then 2nd.

If runner does not immediately choose a direction and proceed, they can and should be called out.

From FED rulebook 8-7-1: When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter touching first base, and while the pitcher has possession of the ball within the 16-foot pitching circle, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

The fact the the FED rules include an exception 'somewhat' reinforces this philosophy that a runner cannot taunt, or attempt to draw/attract a play... for once a play is made, the runner is no longer in jeopardy of the umpire declaring them out for being off base:
EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if a play is made on another runner, (a fake throw is considered a play), the pitcher no longer has possession of the ball within the 16-foot circle, or the pitcher releases the ball on a pitch to the batter.

8-7-2 incorporates a similar philosophy. Unless there is a play made, (ART 2.) "Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, she will be declared out if she leaves the base." (e.g. BR reaches 1st and stops; play is made at 3rd; R1 may leave 1st and attempt to advance to 2nd but should not be allowed to stop at 1st, and then step off to attract a throw and thereby allow R3 to score.)

My immediate is a very short time - anything more than a momentary hesitation is rewarded with an out call. I generally don't wait for the defense to see what is going to happen and then make a defensive response. I ring the out.
:D