Dropped Pitch
 

A pitcher is in mid-windup, and drops the ball before completing the pitch to the catcher. If the ball goes forward, towards home plate, what is the ruling? If the ball goes backward, what is the ruling? Does it matter whether the ball remains in the circle or not?

Ball.

Ball.

No.

If the hands have come together after the pitcher has taken a position on the pitcher's plate. If not, the pitcher has simply dropped the ball. The LBR is off in both cases.

You have been listening to baseball umpires, haven't you? (Bill Hohn probably doesn't know what a softball game is. In fact, I had to google just to find out who Bill Hohn is.) Absolutely no part of this makes any difference in softball.

If the pitch has started (in ASA and NCAA, hands have separated, in NFHS, either hands have separated OR the pitcher makes any motion that is part of the windup after the hands are brought together), it is a pitch; no more, no less. Not illegal, just a pitch. Unless the batter attempts to hit it, we can assume 100% of umpires would call it a ball.

If the pitch hasn't started (hands not yet brought together; yes, the pitcher can windup prior to that point; now refer to prior paragraph for rules differences), it is simply a live ball; pitcher no longer in possession, so LBR doesn't apply. Not a pitch, not a ball, not an illegal pitch.

Have to be careful and not call it a ball too soon. One day some crazy batter is going to swing at this thing as it rolls across the plate at 2 MPH.

So, if the catcher steps up and picks up the ball prior to it reaching the plate, it is.....................................

Catchers obstruction.

Good topic !!, OBSTRUCTION. BUT Once the pitch stops rolling (like right in front of the plate) I think we need to call time ??? so the catcher knows she can go pick it up. Or am I making this too involved.

Better be careful...if there are runners on they are released to run as soon as the ball leaves the pitchers hand!! So you better not kill it with runners on!!

Why call time? If the ball stops before it reaches the plate it cant be catchers obstuction, and if there are runners on base you may have playing action going on.

Okay, next step.

What happens if the batter lays down the bat, takes off toward 1B and the ball rolls against it and stays in fair territory?

Out for hitting the ball while out of the box?

The rule (ASA, NFHS, NCAA) simply states the batter is out if the batter's foot is on the ground outside of the BB when contact is made, fair or foul.

Why is batter taking off, she is assuming ball four?

7-6-D does not specify this but I believe this out would be called only if the batter still had the bat in her hand. Otherwise, on a discarded bat I am going to fall back on the distinction of ball hitting the bat vs bat hitting the ball. This rule is designed to penalize a batter who is hitting the ball while outside the box.

If this is going to be ball four, I see no reason why the batter must wait for the ball to reach the plate. As long as her discarding the bat cannot be considered INT it's simply ball four and now the batter isn't a batter she is a batter-runner so 7-6 ("The batter is out:") no longer applies.

Mind you, I like to call outs as much as the next umpire, but.. :)

Only a BR can "discard" a bat, so I don't think this would apply

Just because a ball is rolling to the plate, does not make it ball four until it reaches the plate and is touched by the catcher. After all, the batter may still attempt to hit the ball if they choose, may even miss the ball. If a runner is stealing and the batter is standing there with the bat cocked and the catcher steps out in front of the plate, that is CO. You are making an assumption of a ruling that just isn't supported by the rules. In FP, the pitch hitting the ground is not a dead ball and the play must be allowed to come to come to a conclusion.

And mind you, I'm only citing the rules which clearing state it is an out. Granted, the odds of a play like this occurring are remote, but the rules is what they is :)

Yes, the batter may still attempt to hit the ball. However, if she has discarded her bat and started to 1B, that ship has sailed. The pitch cannot become a strike unless she swings at it since it has hit the ground. And she has given up on swinging at it. So it's a ball. Still can't see any reason why batter must wait to go to 1B on this pitch..

8-1-C says the batter becomes a BR when four balls are called by the umpire. So when should the umpire call it a ball? 7-5-A says a ball is called by the umpire on any legally delivered pitch that does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground, or touches home plate and the batter does not swing.

This pitch has touched the ground and the batter has by discarding the bat and moving to 1B indicated she is not going to swing. It's ball four so now she is a batter-runner. When the dropped ball rolls against the bat, it is not a batter hitting the ball with one foot out of the box, it is a batter-runner whose discarded bat had the ball hit it. Which is nothing.

Where does it state the batter must be in the batter's hands?

You are reading something that is not there. It cannot be a ball until the batter no longer has the ability to hit the ball. And, again, nothing states the bat must be in the batter's hands NOR does the contact with the ball need to be intentional.

Again, you are reading something that isn't there. Years ago when I was young and fast and played FP while in the USN, I often hung the bat over the plate to let the ball hit it. The ball really goes dead when there is nothing holding the bat. It was not unusual for me to actually release the bat prior to contact with the ball. That was not a discarded bat. And unless you can tell a batter is throwing the bat away and not laying it on the plate with intent of contacting the ball, you have no call until something happens.

This is a TWP and the only reason I raise it was because of my antics 40 years ago and the warnings I often received from umpires about the BB. However, my point is completely backed by the rules as written.

In what manner?

You understand I'm supporting an out call on this?

Ernie has a lot of good points that throw a lot of twists into this, but my only point is that the rule states if the legally pitched ball is hit by the bat while the batter's foot is entirely out of the batter's box, the batter is out.

CeLl phone typing so kiss right nowm

Like 76k2 for intent and spirit. Won't fly but like

That would be a batted ball and a second hit, neither which would apply here.

Unless the bat is part of the playing field?

And how could that be?

Again, you are talking about a second hit and that is not the case here.

Irrelevant

Irish.. thanks for your service, sir!

OK, so this is a very interesting discussion.

Irish, your story about your Navy fastpitch days made me reread your post. I am getting the point you are driving at. I was thinking of a batter who sees the pitcher drop the pitch and knowing it's ball four decides to get to 1B asap and see what else she can get. Her discarded bat comes to rest in fair territory and the ball rolls into it.

But in your scenario you don't really care what the count is, you are talking about a batter who, seeing a dropped pitch rolling to the plate intentionally places the bat in the path of the ball and takes off to 1B.

Crazy idea but I would agree that by rule this is contacting the ball with the bat with one foot out of the batters box and so a dead ball out.

So if she tries to hit the ball in this manner but the ball rolls past the bat, is it a swing and a miss? She made an attempt to hit the ball even if it while the bat was not in her hands...

Is it a bunt attempt? If the ball rolled into the bat before the batter got her foot out of the box and the ball rolled foul with two strikes is she out for bunting foul?

Like is said, TWP.

I would say no. see below

This probably would be perceived as a "bunt" as the only possible positive result would be that the bat tapped slowly in the infield. However, that means that for the purposes of determine if the batter "offered" at the pitch, the bat not being withdrawn has no bearing, and even if it did, the bat isn't in the strike zone.

Mike,

If this batter is smart enough to put her bat in the path of the ball with the intent to hit the ball ... suppose she's also smart enough to watch the pitch as she's running and leap into the air just before the ball strikes the bat.

Yes, WAY TWP ... but you started it! :) I have a base hit in this situation.

(Wanna make it weirder? What if R1 from third contacts the bat before the ball gets there?)

OK, I'm definitely on the wrong question. :o

:D
Obstruction on R1?????

No, great question. And by the exact wording of the rule, there is no out to be had here, assuming the umpire is going to see the leap and be able to watch the ball at the same time ;)

Depends. If no contact between bat and ball, it is a stolen base.
Now comes the hard part. You cannot have an offensive player obs a batter. What would you do if R1 was stealing home with the B still in the BB, R1 clips batter who falls and the bat hits the pitch?

Like we need TWP to get to that point!!! :D

twp =?

thanks

Like:D

Here is one umpire that will determine the entire foot was on the ground at the time of contact. Because, in my opinion, the "exact wording" isn't intended to allow what is being discussed, it is intended to describe and clarify that out of the box doesn't include a foot still partially in, nor a foot that hasn't yet landed.

Every standard rule application relating to use of lines says you are 1) where your foot is currently on the ground, 2) if your foot is in the air, it is where it was last on the ground, and 3) you can re-establish a new location when one foot touches back in and the other foot then comes down after being in the air. There is NO WAY the intent of the wording regarding contacting the ball while out of the box contemplates allowing a batter to run forward with feet completely out of the box, jump in the air and contact the ball, then land with feet completely out of the box. Forget this third world dropping the bat discussion, are you allowing a slapper to do what I described on an eefus change up, and saying this is a legally batted ball??

Me, I have the batter out of the box, that's what I saw.

Admittedly we're talking extreme twp here... however, I do not believe your assertions (2) and (3) above to be correct. In fact, I can think of no other rule in this sport that treats in or out of anything as you describe. Further, I can remember numerous clinics where the phrase, "this isn't basketball" is spoken in relation to such "in and out" of the lines discussions. In basketball, you are in or out... in baseball/softball - there is a third option - neither.

Check definitions of a catch/no catch as relates to in play/out of play/catch and carry.

third world play good thing the pc police do not peruse this board. we would be on the news:D

ditto. and case plays use this exact language in describing plays.

Batted ball, play ball...fair or foul, ......caught or not caught.

Amazing that a post put in to win a 1 beer bet, has crated 4 pages and I knew the answer and was proving a point to one of my 'young guns'. This board is AWESOME:eek: