DP/FLEX case 120516a
 

Lineup
1
2
3
4
5 DP – Ann
6 pitcher –Barb
7
8
9
Flex – Cathy
subs
Donna
Ellen
Fran
Coach wants to know if he can replace Ann with Donna,
and have Donna pitch with Barb on bench as NFB.

Then does not want Donna to bat,
so wants to have Cathy bat/run for her
and Donna (DP/pitcher) field only (like FLEX).

NFB – Non Fielding Batter
-----------------------------------------

Please comment.

Well yes, to a point...

Donna can sub for Ann (so far Donna is still the DP and she can play F1)

THEN Cathy (the FLEX) can bat for Donna - but Donna will have left the game.

For Donna to pitch again, she will have to use her one re-entrty (and Donna will again be the flex)

Next at bat, Cathy can again bat for Donna, but Donna will not be able to return.

He can do it twice by having the flex bat for the DP when its the DP's turn to bat, but the 2nd time he does it Donna is done for the game.

+1

The DP can never play defense only.

Anytime the DP is not in the "offensive" line-up, the DP is considered to have left the game.

The DP and Flex may never be on offense at the same time.

The Flex may never be on offense only.

He can not do what you have posted and I have bolded. He has to do what the other posts say to do.

I posted this for instructional purposes, although already knew the rule and informed the coach exactly what RKBUmp said.

I thought it was worth presenting because my partner struggled with it a bit (possibly just the coach's explanation) and apparently, an ump in another County allowed the last part (Donna (DP/pitcher) field only :confused:).

Someone Confirm this
 

So Donna cannot play the field only- because she originally subbed in as a DP.

I have to admit just reading it I wasn't following what he was doing but once I started laying it out on a lineup card it was pretty obvious

Correct.

Could you kindly pre-identify posts where you pose a question, but already know the answer.

I'd rather not waste my time trying to find the words to explain something to someone who already knows the answer.

Thanks,

See the above explainations - Donna CAN play the field only - by having the FLEX bat for her when her at bat comes up...... but she can only re-enter once -
Donna (the DP) she can play defense till her at bat comes up (then the FLEX takes her place and Donna has left the game).
When her team goes back on defense, Donna can re-enter as the DP playing in the field.
THEN when Donna's turn to bat comes up again, the FLEX can bat for her.
Donna will have again left the game, but can not return...

So yes, Donna CAN play defense only (for a limited time).

Thank you.

I haven't umpired in two seasons and figured I'd tackle my weak spot first. Which is the Dp/Flex .

I guess it's a matter of semantics....

And as I've said before - I'm not anti-semantic!!
:D:D:D

This helps alot. Thanks. Now did you have to think that through or was that answer by the seat of your pants ? :cool:

Whenever a coach comes up with one of these schemes, I have to slow down.
Sometimes I have to translate what they are saying they want to do into what they are actually doing.
:D

Like in the example above, I really don't care what you called it, playing defense only or being replaced when she came to bat, the important thing was to know that she could only re-enter to play defense once...

Clear? :eek:

OK. :)

I was hoping someone who did not understand would ask/comment and we could clarify, as you did. Sorry.

:d

xtreamump
 

I have had a hard time teaching this in my area. The old way "When I do not know" they say that the DP/Flex can change positions during the game an unlimited number of times ??? Then the DP gets on base and they allow the flex to run for her, The DP is not F1 or F2. The CR is also a hard rule to get some old timers to follow they allow any bench player run for F1 or F2, and not the same runner. who ever the coach wants to put in. Help me in a very simple way to teach this.

You need to separate lineup designations "DP/Flex" from the individual players (starters and subs).
They can swap lineup designations unlimited to the extent that they have enough players to accommodate this within standard re-entry rules.

xtreamump
 

DP gets on base, coach wants the flex to run. That is a substitution ???
DP batter # 4 switches with the flex # 10 on the line up card. That is a substitution ????

The easiest way I have to think of this is the FLEX is a defensive specialist, as long as they play defense they have not left the game. The DP is an offensive specialist as long as they play offense they have not left the game. Now start through all your weird plays or "subs" and keep these in mind and you should be able to come up with the right answers!

So in your first question, the FLEX runs for the DP this means the DP is no longer playing offense so she has left the game (still has one reentry). The FLEX who will still play defense has had no change to her status, other than now she is now doing two jobs (her job of defense and DP's job of offense).

I am not sure what you are saying in your second question.
Possibility #1) Are you saying that the #4 batter who is the DP comes in to play offense for the FLEX? If that is what you are saying then (assumming that player is the starting DP) then that DP has used her one re-entry and the FLEX is back to playing defense only, and as long as they do play defense they have never left the game.

Possibility #2) Are you saying that the #4 batter who is the DP is going to play defense for the FLEX? If this is the case then the FLEX has left the game (not playing defense anymore), but the DP who will continue to play offense has had no change in her status, other than now she is now doing two jobs (her job of offense and FLEX's job of defense).


Again coaches can and will use this rule multiple ways and add all sorts of twists and turns to it....but if you keep the basic of if the DP always plays offense when they are suppose to, and the FLEX always plays defense when they are suppose to then they have not left the game. And if they don't "do their job" then they have left the game you should be able to sort through the confusion and get the right ruling!!

Xtreamump
 

Thanks, Coach says I want my DP & Flex to swap positions.

I'm thinking that any bench player, who hasn't participated, can run. So you can have different CR's for either the F1/F2.

xtreamump
 

If # 24 runs for F1 in the 1st inning can she run for F2 in the 3rd inning ? # 11 runs for F2. #24 & #11 are the only players that have not been in the game. Now is #24 locked in for F1 & # 11 locked for F2 for CR for the game untill they enter the game ? They think a bench player that has been in the game and has been substituted for is eligible to be a CR.

No. A player can CR for only one position player, F1 or F2. It doesn't have to be the same player. For example, if #10 is the starting F1, and #24 runs for her, #24 may also CR for relief F1 #15 when she pitches, as long as #24 hasn't been in the game.

Yes.

Whoever "they" are are wrong, under rule. Once a player has entered the game, she is no longer eligible to CR the rest of the game.

That said, some rec leagues have house rules that allow all sorts of crazy CR variations. So "they" may be thinking the actual book rules allow that.

That's when we ask WTF do you mean coach? NEVER accept this sort of statement from a coach, always get more clarity to make sure you record the change correctly and sometimes that they know what they are doing correctly!

Blue: Coach let me get my lineup out here what do you want to do?
Coach: I want my DP & FLEX to swap positions
Blue: So you want your FLEX to bat for your DP, or your DP to play Defense for your FLEX?

Those are the only two possible things a coach can legally do with the FLEX/DP so make sure you have perfect clarity on which they want, and if necessary be ready to explain what that change does to their ability to re-enter later.

Continue from above
Coach: I want my FLEX to bat for my DP
Blue: Ok so the DP has left the game but still has her one reentry (as you are marking your lineup card) and the FLEX is up here (drawing an arrow up for the FLEX to bat in the DP spot) batting for the DP, ok no problem coach

By saying that while the coach is next to you it lets it sink in to him/her that the DP has left the game and can only re-enter once.

:rolleyes:Not sure if you are trying to be elitist or what by referring to "REC leagues","house rules" and "crazy CR variations", but there are several other "respected" softball organizations which BY RULE have variations which are not crazy at all.

By "rec" leagues, I mean local leagues in my area that play under ASA rules, but have "house" rules that allow for:

- the CR to be the player who "made the last out". So, different CRs can run for the same F2 in one inning! And what happens when there is no player who made the last out because the team constantly scores its max runs in each inning without making an out? Yes, I had to adjudicate that discussion.

- the CR to be the player who "made the second out of the inning", and only brought in to run for F1 or F2 when there are two outs. So, if a team doesn't record any outs in an inning, or records only one, they are not allowed to use a CR.

- the CR is "a player who will be the last batter in that inning." So what the heck does THAT mean? If F2 bats before her and gets on base, what now?

- CRs being mandatory. Seriously. The rule for this rec league says, "Courtesy runners are mandatory for catcher or pitcher on base with 2 team outs." Then the rule goes on to say, "The catcher/pitcher is defined as the player who will play at the catcher's or pitcher's position in the following 'defensive' portion of the inning." So, we can't enter a CR for the current pitcher of record if we intend on replacing her the next defensive inning?

Yes, crazy. :rolleyes:

xtreamump
 

Thanks, very helpful

I'm the same way.
I utilize EA's lineup card management system.....it helps me keep straight what the coach can or cannot legally do regarding the use of his DP/Flex.

xtreamump
 

Those are the only two possible things a coach can legally do with the FLEX/DP so make sure you have perfect clarity on which they want, and if necessary be ready to explain what that change does to their ability to re-enter later.

If the coach wants to switch the DP for the Flex, is that a substitution ? If the DP gets on base can they switch DP & Flex ? is that a substitution ? I know that I am doing something that I hate but I need to know "What If" I want to cover all situations and be able to explain (short and to the point) professionally.

Absolutely, it is the easiest to use and easiest to understand.

Ask yourself this question: Is the Flex playing offense for the DP? If yes, then the DP is out of the game and it takes a re-entry to get her back in.

On the flip side: Is the DP playing defense for the Flex? If yes, then the Flex is out of the game and it takes a re-entry to get her back in.

Any player (CRs excepted; they're not considered in the game) who has been in the game and is now out has been substituted for.

OK? :)

xtreamump
 

Very helpful. What is EA's line up card system ?

you can find that at the cactusumpire site - Welcome to Cactus Umpires - if it's up. It was down to have some maint work done for a while.

And still is.

That's great Mike - I am forwarding that address to our school clinicians so they can see it..

xtreamump
 

Thanks