Interference Question

[umpire12]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I didn't want to give the whole thing away. Telling him that his answer was in the "the runner is out" section answers the question.

i do understand your position but i think just pointing him in the right direction without evaluating his work ethic is more productive to new umpires than subtle hints. the rule book can be very daunting to even veteran umpires.lets show him what he needs to know then wean him out of this stage once he gets a grip on the layout of the book.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i do understand your position but i think just pointing him in the right direction without evaluating his work ethic is more productive to new umpires than subtle hints. the rule book can be very daunting to even veteran umpires.lets show him what he needs to know then wean him out of this stage once he gets a grip on the layout of the book.

I agree, but disagree. Work ethic is the difference between an umpire and someone who umpires.

You can warn a child about being burned by fire or touching a hot iron or whatever, but only when the child suffers a burn of some type will s/he be able to fully appreciate and understand the warnings.

Do it right the first time and there is no "catching up" to do, which I find to be a difficult task for many.

The OP suggested a mentor. Would a mentor just offer an answer or page number? Or would a mentor ask a question or offer a comment which would lead to further research and hopeful discovery?

Mike offered the "interference" section. It was stated that there is none. Well, actually there is.....in the Index which breaks down the many situations and locations to find the appropriate rule.

Do we really need to break out that fishy chinese proverb?

You might also note that I previously provided the test answer references which should have taken him to the answers.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree, but disagree. Work ethic is the difference between an umpire and someone who umpires.

You can warn a child about being burned by fire or touching a hot iron or whatever, but only when the child suffers a burn of some type will s/he be able to fully appreciate and understand the warnings.

Do it right the first time and there is no "catching up" to do, which I find to be a difficult task for many.

The OP suggested a mentor. Would a mentor just offer an answer or page number? Or would a mentor ask a question or offer a comment which would lead to further research and hopeful discovery?

Mike offered the "interference" section. It was stated that there is none. Well, actually there is.....in the Index which breaks down the many situations and locations to find the appropriate rule.

Do we really need to break out that fishy chinese proverb?

You might also note that I previously provided the test answer references which should have taken him to the answers.

You should consider newbies as new born babes. They have to learn to crawl before they can walk. A little more spoon feeding at the beginning is appropriate. To your questions regarding a mentor, the answer is yes to all of them. A good mentor will adjust his approach as the umpire grows. At first, he should answer questions directly. Then as his understanding is strengthened, he should probably start asking questions that will get the umpire to think. Then he could direct the umpire to the appropriate rule.

My mentor answered my questions directly instead of telling me where in the book to look for the answers. My first year I asked a lot of questions. No so much my 2nd year and I didn't ask any my 3rd year. Learning to umpire is a process. I think we can show a little more patience to the newbies and give them more of a direct answer and explain the reasoning instead of just say read rule x.y.z. Then as they grow in understanding, we change our approach. Just like parenting! We answer questions directly when they are young and then as the get older we ask questions to stimulate their thinking.

As to your Chinese fish proverb! I'm assuming you mean "give a man a fish feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime". Well, how are you going to teach him? Tell him to "Go read a book"? How about showing him and teaching him what bait to use for the fish he is after. What's the best time to fish and why. How to cast.

[Dakota]

Good Lord! Maybe we should broaden this thread turned diatribe into a discussion of whether the OP is a visual learner, auditory learner, or tactile learner and make sure we customize the response to each new guy based on learning style.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Good Lord! Maybe we should broaden this thread turned diatribe into a discussion of whether the OP is a visual learner, auditory learner, or tactile learner and make sure we customize the response to each new guy based on learning style.

Everybody learns the same way. There are no differences in learning styles. We should just teach one way.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Good Lord! Maybe we should broaden this thread turned diatribe into a discussion of whether the OP is a visual learner, auditory learner, or tactile learner and make sure we customize the response to each new guy based on learning style.

Just for future reference I am a visual learner with good autitory retention. Don't ask me to read to learn....I have read 4 books cover to cover...3 of them are rule books!!!

I see both sides of this pissing match that is going on here. But one old saying I saw at a place I used to work read:

"Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Involve me and I will understand"

I understand the concept of being frustrated as a newbie. The book isn't the easiest to grasp sometimes...but just giving the answer falls into the first line of my quote, working through the rule book to teach a new umpire how to work out the answer on their own is how to get someone REALLY involved in umpiring and learning the rules the way they need to be known to become a good umpire. I do fully recongnize this has to be a balance between making the trail easy enough to follow that someone doesn't get frustrated and quit, but still hard enough that they learn from the experience. Let's all just try to meet in the middle a little bit

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by daveasa/fed

just for future reference i am a visual learner with good autitory retention. Don't ask me to read to learn....i have read 4 books cover to cover...3 of them are rule books!!!

I see both sides of this pissing match that is going on here. But one old saying i saw at a place i used to work read:

"tell me and i will forget
show me and i will remember
involve me and i will understand"

i understand the concept of being frustrated as a newbie. The book isn't the easiest to grasp sometimes...but just giving the answer falls into the first line of my quote, working through the rule book to teach a new umpire how to work out the answer on their own is how to get someone really involved in umpiring and learning the rules the way they need to be known to become a good umpire. I do fully recongnize this has to be a balance between making the trail easy enough to follow that someone doesn't get frustrated and quit, but still hard enough that they learn from the experience. Let's all just try to meet in the middle a little bit

+1

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

...I have read 4 books cover to cover...3 of them are rule books!!!...

And the other? Published by Marvel, perhaps?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Dakota

And the other? Published by Marvel, perhaps?

NO, I am very offended by that insinuation. It was a book by Bill Engvall my wife bought me!! True story....Here's your sign!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

You should consider newbies as new born babes. They have to learn to crawl before they can walk. A little more spoon feeding at the beginning is appropriate. To your questions regarding a mentor, the answer is yes to all of them. A good mentor will adjust his approach as the umpire grows. At first, he should answer questions directly. Then as his understanding is strengthened, he should probably start asking questions that will get the umpire to think. Then he could direct the umpire to the appropriate rule.

My mentor answered my questions directly instead of telling me where in the book to look for the answers. My first year I asked a lot of questions. No so much my 2nd year and I didn't ask any my 3rd year. Learning to umpire is a process. I think we can show a little more patience to the newbies and give them more of a direct answer and explain the reasoning instead of just say read rule x.y.z. Then as they grow in understanding, we change our approach. Just like parenting! We answer questions directly when they are young and then as the get older we ask questions to stimulate their thinking.

As to your Chinese fish proverb! I'm assuming you mean "give a man a fish feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime". Well, how are you going to teach him? Tell him to "Go read a book"? How about showing him and teaching him what bait to use for the fish he is after. What's the best time to fish and why. How to cast.

He is not a baby and I'm not going to treat him or anyone else like they are a baby. If that is what they want, I would suggest a nursery.

He was given the answers and references.

Whether you want to admit it or not, in today's world, NO ONE thinks it is important to actually learn this stuff. It is unbelieveable how many people take the instruction as if it were a suggestion, not direction.

Like it or not, if you want someone to excel, they have to want and work to learn, force feeding doesn't help. This is how you end up with "veteran" umpires ruling or being talked into ruling the hands as part of the bat; an IF is a dead ball; its one base from the infield, two from the outfield, etc. This often happens simply because that umpire never had to make such a decision and was never "given" the exact ruling.

Don't like chinese proverbs? How about Algernon Sydney?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

He is not a baby and I'm not going to treat him or anyone else like they are a baby. If that is what they want, I would suggest a nursery.

He was given the answers and references.

Whether you want to admit it or not, in today's world, NO ONE thinks it is important to actually learn this stuff. It is unbelieveable how many people take the instruction as if it were a suggestion, not direction.

Like it or not, if you want someone to excel, they have to want and work to learn, force feeding doesn't help. This is how you end up with "veteran" umpires ruling or being talked into ruling the hands as part of the bat; an IF is a dead ball; its one base from the infield, two from the outfield, etc. This often happens simply because that umpire never had to make such a decision and was never "given" the exact ruling.

Don't like chinese proverbs? How about Algernon Sydney?

Its not the force feeding that makes veteran umpires rule such things. Its being feed the wrong answers. I doubt very seriously if you forced fed anyone regarding those rules above, that they would get them wrong. You would give them the correct answers.

I like that proverb and have used it a great deal. I just think that at times the direct approach is best instead of "Go read a book". Whether you like it or not, different teaching styles exist because we all learn differently. One size does not fit all.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

Its not the force feeding that makes veteran umpires rule such things. Its being feed the wrong answers. I doubt very seriously if you forced fed anyone regarding those rules above, that they would get them wrong. You would give them the correct answers.

I can tell you I spend a load of time every year offering everything I can to any umpire or prospect who is willing to sit and listen. And it is unbelieveable how many couldn't come up with the correct ruling if their life depended on it. We talk about, we go through the rule with the book open and then offer examples. That is my idea of "force feeding". However, none of it makes a difference if the person isn't willing to actually get into the book and voluntarily absorb the information.

I have found that more than less will choose to accept the easy path and not follow up on their own.

I like that proverb and have used it a great deal. I just think that at times the direct approach is best instead of "Go read a book". Whether you like it or not, different teaching styles exist because we all learn differently. One size does not fit all.

No argument, but that was not the case here. The newb was given the answers and then told where to find them.

What happens when you make a ruling and there seems to be a viable question on the field that makes you think twice about it? Do you check the book after the game, or do you just assume you must have been right and there is no need to check?

I guarantee if it is the former, you will get this ruling right every time the rest of your career, even if you kicked it that one time on the field.

If the latter, you may feel solid, but if you kicked it this time, you are doomed to repeat that failure.

[Steve M]

Interesting that ther is no late/current reponse from our original poster - nsc_wa - if I remember correctly.
From folks I know, I can tell you Mike is not a friendly teacher - but he is a very good teacher. He is thorough.
From those who whine that he and others are too harsh, they have not hear me ask what do they rule book and manual say? My frequent suggestion is to RTFM - translation is - Read The F-ing Manual.
After one has does that - RTFM - I will gladly answer/address any question that remains.