Intentional walk ... coach goes berserk

[bobbrix]

Girls 10 & 11 year old league final (orthodox pitching).

Team A has a pitcher that no one can hit off of. Further, when she bats, she hits the ball a mile.

Team B coach starts complaining that she's a ringer and shouldn't be allowed to play.

So, Team B coach tells her pitcher to walk this kid.

Team A coach goes nuts ... swearing, rude gestures, etc and gets tossed. A horrific display for everyone all the way to the parking lot.

(I'm a spectator at this one.)


Question:

Is it legal to intentionally walk a batter in an obvious manner??? These were pitch-outs like you'd see in major ball (except the catcher wasn't standing, she was in her crouch but like 2 feet off the plate).

I thought they could try to throw just out of the strike zone, to try to draw strikes on close pitches, but still had to try to pitch to the batter.

... bobbrix

[ref5678]

I rember in the ASA book saying pitch outs for an intenioal walk are legal

[WestMichBlue]

Intentional walks are legal, but the pitcher must throw four balls. (Unlike SP or H.S. baseball where the batter can be waived to 1B.)

Remember that the catcher's box is 10' deep (behind the end of the batter's box) and 8' - 5" wide. The catcher can stand anywhere in that box to take those pitches. She should be able to position herself where the pitcher can throw directly at her and not have the pitch come near the strike zone.

WayTom

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Intentional walks are legal, but the pitcher must throw four balls. ... skip ... WayTom

If there are no runners, like this apparently spite walk, the pitcher could fake pitch in an illegal manner four times to not risk the batter reaching the pitch. Is there any prevention or prohibition?

p.s. Intentional walks are dumb in amateur league play, but at that age are something unmentionable.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne
If there are no runners, like this apparently spite walk, the pitcher could fake pitch in an illegal manner four times to not risk the batter reaching the pitch. Is there any prevention or prohibition?

p.s. Intentional walks are dumb in amateur league play, but at that age are something unmentionable.

Pretty dumb idea if there are runners on base; but as you say, "no runners"... sounds shady, whereas...

Also, I object, as a matter of principle, referring to this legal strategy as a "spite walk."

The intentional walk has been a part of the game for ages. It is a valid defensive strategy wherein the defense takes the risk of putting another runner on base of the advantage of not risking a multi-RBI hit or wanting to have a force out at multiple bases.

Perhaps the coach who originally objected believes winning stragegies should not be allowed at 10U, but swearing and throwing fits should. Interesting choice.

[CecilOne]

This particular example, not the strategy, sounded like spite to me:

"Team B coach starts complaining that she's a ringer and shouldn't be allowed to play.

So, Team B coach tells her pitcher to walk this kid."

[bobbrix]

Yes, I would say spite.

The spirit of the game is certainly to have pitchers try to challenge the batter by throwing strikes. Particularly with youth fast pitch. (Not sure where “youth” would end, but I can’t say I’ve seen 14-15 year olds intentionally walking somebody in an obvious manner.)

The case I speak of is the 2nd one I’ve seen. Both times the defense coach loudly proclaiming “walk her” and both times the offense coach going nuts. So, CecilOne’s statement “Intentional walks are dumb in amateur league play, but at that age are something unmentionable.” is definitely a fact.

Given the reaction of the offense coaches in the two instances I’ve seen, if the defense wants to walk someone they should have a signal or some non-obvious way of getting that message to the pitcher. And then have the pitcher throw pitches ‘just outside’ of the strike zone (not that that’s easy for youth pitchers to do). Maybe more risk that a batter might reach and hit one, but at least avoiding the chance of the opposing coach throwing a fit.

[DaveASA/FED]

bobbrix,
I have seen 14-15 year olds intentionally walk a batter. Happened to me as a coach Saturday. A player on my team hit an in the park home run (I wish I could run like her!!) Next time up they intentionally walked her. Catcher set up on the very outside line of the left hand batter box (right hand batter) and they threw. The only funny thing was the first pitch hit the outside corner and blue rung up a strike!! Everybody laughed as it was obvious they were trying to walk her as the coach was yelling directions to catch and pitch to get them setup where he wanted them. It must have worked as we lost the game 7-6, what if she would have been able to get a hit...... The could have should have would have's !!! It was a good game, the kind you like to coach but love to umpire!!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by bobbrix
Yes, I would say spite.

The spirit of the game is certainly to have pitchers try to challenge the batter by throwing strikes. Particularly with youth fast pitch. (Not sure where “youth” would end, but I can’t say I’ve seen 14-15 year olds intentionally walking somebody in an obvious manner.)

The case I speak of is the 2nd one I’ve seen. Both times the defense coach loudly proclaiming “walk her” and both times the offense coach going nuts. So, CecilOne’s statement “Intentional walks are dumb in amateur league play, but at that age are something unmentionable.” is definitely a fact.

Given the reaction of the offense coaches in the two instances I’ve seen, if the defense wants to walk someone they should have a signal or some non-obvious way of getting that message to the pitcher. And then have the pitcher throw pitches ‘just outside’ of the strike zone (not that that’s easy for youth pitchers to do). Maybe more risk that a batter might reach and hit one, but at least avoiding the chance of the opposing coach throwing a fit.

Perhaps you play a more genteel version of softball. I have seen intentional walks at all age levels when the importance of the game and the situation came together. Why you would characterize the defensive coach as "spiteful" but have little to say about the offensive coach being, well, offensive is a mystery to me.

The statement

Intentional walks are dumb in amateur league play, but at that age are something unmentionable.

is not a fact, but an opinion. I understand the basis of the opinion, and would consider a coach who would use the intentional walk in regular league or rec play to be out-of-line (but not illegal), but take that same age team and have them in the finals of a State or National Tournament, and you have a different situation where using this tactic to win is entirely appropriate and honorable (IMO).

And, requiring the defense to actually throw four pitches outside of the strike zone to get the intentional walk places a bit more burden on the defense. Again, appropriately.

If the batter is feeling offended by this, she shouldn't. She should feel respected.

[Panda Bear]

Coaches are allowed to go berserk. If it becomes excessive or abusive, that is why we umpires are allowed to redirect them to the parking lot if necessary.

Intentional walks are perfectly legal, some codes as noted have dispensed with throwing 4 pitches to speed up the game.

I too have seen intentional walks in 14U & even 12U, though it is somewhat unusual. More often, just very careful pitching. As to whether there is a problem with this strategy, as is often the case, it depends, but more on the level of play/experience than the age.

I gather that some that post here have many players that are very early in their careers at age 12 or 14. At early levels of play, the inability to throw a strike often overrides any such need. On the other hand, around here, many girls are starting fastpitch at 7 (!), so by the time they are 12 or 14, you may be talking about 6-8 years experience. And we have some 12 year olds that can and have reached fences. On the other hand, the church league may be played at the lowest level with 10 year veteran players in their 30s & 40s.

So, consider the prevailing level of play and experience more than the age of the player.

While I also agree that a coach should not try to incite an incident, a coach should not have to avoid any legal strategy that just might upset the other coach. Take it as the clean single it is the equal of, and have the next hitter be able to get a quality at bat!