HI all looking for some back up on this which i am pretty sure of the answer myself but looking for the exact clarification. We had a situation the other night in which there was a runner on first and no outs. The batter proceeds to hit a groundball to the firstbaseman he catches it the runner runs back to firstbase and stands there. I instruct my 1st baseman to tag the runner first before tagging the base. He does but the umpire somehow calls him safe and the batter out. In my 30 plus years of baseball and softball always thought the runner was forced to run which should resulted in a double play. I argued the point for a few minutes then let it go so i ask please will a real umpire make the right call for me? By the way this was in an NSA adult leauge softball game (not that it matters).

As described - Double Play. The base is not an island and the runner on first is forced to advance because of the batter runner.

The runner that must advance can be tagged or the bag to which he/she is going to can be tagged.

Yeah, we've discussed this before - thanks for the thread link, AB.

Rick, your umpire's call was incorrect unless he saw your F3 touch the bag first - maybe not intentionally, but maybe he did.

Thanks
 

For all of you who replied thanks, I am glad that more people think the way i do. It just helped me to think i've missed something all theses years. Now another question to any umpires out there, Is the black on the plate part of the plate or not? some umps call it a strike if the ball hits the black others call it a ball, which is it?

First of all.
If the plate is installed correctly, you should not see the black.
But, if you do, think of it this way. If you were to remove the plate from the field, does the black stay behind?
NO, part of the plate.
Secondly, the laws of physics dictate, taking into account trajectory and flight of the ball, you cannot hit the black without catching some white.

Re: Thanks
 

Speaking ASA

The black part of the plate is considered part of the plate for all purposes whether calling the pitch or touching the plate by the runner or defender.

If you have an ASA umpire tell you different, have them ask their UIC to check page 15 of the 2003 ASA Umpire Clinic Guide.

Yes, the black is considered the plate, but

<b>Secondly, the laws of physics dictate, taking into account trajectory and flight of the ball, you cannot hit the black without catching some white.</b>

This statement is patently false.

The black part kind of slopes down and you could hit black and dirt without hitting white. JMH observation.

I have always thought the black/white arguments were useless. The plate is defined by its dimensions (17", 8 1/2", 12", 12", 8 1/2") and not by color. Whatever piece of material you see on the ground at the base of the foul lines is the plate. As long as it meets the dimensions, it is all home plate. If it doesn't meet the dimensions, get it fixed/replaced or make a ground rule that it will serve as home plate for that game.

I believe that on plates that contain black, the white is 17 inches wide. The black is simply a slope to keep runners from getting their spikes caught on a vertical edge. I have seen 17-inch (white) plates with a black slope that is as much as an inch and a half, even 2 inches, wide all the way around. (That would be a lot for a baseball pitcher.) Regardless, ASA does instruct its umps to consider the black to be part of the plate.

Maybe the statement about a ball that hits black has to hit white referred only to balls hitting the ground. That makes more sense, as it would be tough for a ball to hit only the slope without hitting the top.

Let's face it, on pitches, most umpires give the black and then some. I certainly do.

No problem.

Please contact every company which produces a home base. Insure that all are made of the same material and identical dimensions and color.

Then contact every management organization responsible for any and all softball fields in the world, public or private, FORCE them to buy and install the exact piece of equipment for every ball field for which they are responsible in the exact same manner.

When task is complete, arrange a meeting of all bodies which sanction ANY type of softball game in the world and have them agree, on paper, that they will all equally adopt this plate, the manner in which it is installed and agree to incorporate identical rules and interpretations from that day forward without waiver.

When you get that done, call us back and we'll see what we can do :)

Mike, please lighten up. All I am saying is that the color doesn't matter. Whatever non-dirt material in a 5 sided slab you see is home plate. The width or angle or existence of the "black" doesn't matter, it's part of the plate. I quoted the dimensions to emphasize that the definition does not include color, beveling, etc.

I think what I said agrees with "The black part of the plate is considered part of the plate for all purposes whether calling the pitch or touching the plate by the runner or defender."

No, I will not lighten up as this issue is a serious matter that makes the umpires who know how to call it look bad by those who don't due to lack of clinical diligence or opinion.

Quote:

As long as it meets the dimensions, it is all home plate. If it doesn't meet the dimensions, get it fixed/replaced or make a ground rule that it will serve as home plate for that game

This is the part of you post that got me. It's quite obvious that most manufactured plates do not include the beveled parts of their product within the dimensions you cited, though there are some odd ones out there that do.

So, I'm sort of curious just how you get it fixed or replaced? And just what type of ground rule would you enforce? ASA umpires are specifically instructed to rule in a certain matter in this case which would preclude someone's idea of a special ground rule.

The inconsistency in production and installation is the exact reason why ASA approaches this with an interpretation as opposed to a rule which would have to be so vague it would be useless.

OK, I get those (both comments).

"Fixed or replaced" was something I hoped all would get as too extreme, as was the "ground rule" by which I meant call the entirety of whatever plate is there. Sorry that I got to you that way, trying too hard to put down the black/white issue.

If MIke says that ASA wants umpires to use that black, then that's good enough for me, even though I had not called the black up 'till now.

But if a field is installed correctly, then the origin of fair territory is at the point where the two white sides converge, correct? So if the black is not used to define fair territory, then shouldn't it follow the same line of reasoning that the black should not be used to define the strike zone? That is, how can the boundaries of home plate be defined differently for separate applications?

Regarding the original topic of the thread...

This happened tonight in a MLB game: Pirates vs. Indians which BTW went another 15 innings.

No outs. Runner on 1B. Pitcher is up with a 1-1 count. Bunts a high pop up that F3 bobbles--touched in fair territory. The BR stops about 10 feet from the bag. R1 is still on 1B. F3 stands between the BR and 1B. F3 eventually steps towards 1B, tags it with his foot (replays show that he was actually a foot away from the bag), PU calls the BR out before F3 makes his play. I didn't understand it when I saw it, but that doesn't matter.

From what I've read, the Indians could've had a double play by tagging R1 first and then touching the bag. If they would've touched the bag first, then R1 would've been safe. Am I right?

Does this mean that those who do not include the black as part of the plate are making those who do look bad?
And that they don't include it because they have not caught on that they are supposed to?
Or did you mean more than that?

Does "bobbled" mean that it (1)touched the ground or (2)just bobbled in the air and eventually caught? (2) would mean BR out. If (1), did the BR reverse direction (before F3 "touching" 1st) or did the PU take the BU call?

You are correct about the double play possibility, which is why on a full height fly with two forcible runners on, we have an infield(er) fly rule.

Bobbled as in juggled and dropped, but touched in fair territory. BR did not reverse direction back to home. The BU never made a call. It was all the PU. There was only one runner on so the infield fly couldn't be in effect.

Mike didn't say it, ASA says it in their clinic guide.

And if a field is installed correctly, three-quarters of second base is outside the diamond. What sense does that make? They call it the foul line and dead ball line, but they are considered in fair and playable territory respectively. The game is call "softball", but the balls are hard as a rock.

Not everything is exact or logical in life, so why would you expect this game to be?

"Let's face it, on pitches, most umpires give the black and then some. I certainly do." (clip from greymule)

Oh great, greymule, that's exactly what i've been afraid to hear all season long !!!

Being my first year behind the plate, I haven't been very generous at all with pitches that don't catch a piece of the white section of home plate. Maybe some of those "come on Blue, that was over the plate!!" cries I've been hearing were right ?????


My 2cents:

I have a home plate and it measures 17" across the white portion. The black is extra. I wouldn’t call the black perimeter part of the plate ... but read on:

May I offer the possibility that purpose of the black perimeter is to make the edge of the actual plate more visible to the umpire against the sand/gravel/etc on which it rests?

I know that at my clinic this year, the clinician suggested we call strikes for pitches that, in his words, "catch the paint". Like I said above, I haven't been doing that.

Some clarifications are needed
 

The black is not dirt. It is plate. In slowpitch if the pitch hits the black it has hit the plate and should be called a ball. PERSONNALLY... as an umpire cover the black (at the back of the plate) with dirt and call strikes when the dirt is hit by the pitch. PERSONNALLY... leave the black at the sides of the plate visible - it makes for a wider plate and more strike calls. A pitch that hits the black on the side of the plate is well short and should be called a ball.

Original question about FORCE PLAY - in FED rule book see rule 2-24: a force play is a play in which the runner loses the right to the base occupied and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner.

This means the base occupied is not a sanctuary and the runner standing on the base is in immediate jeopardy (to be tagged out) - she/he must advance. If tagged while standing on a base from which they are forced to leave, they are out. This is true unless the force has been removed by tagging the base prior to tagging the runner. (You are correct BigJohnUmp.)

This is more than JMHO. :D