Not Your Everyday Play
 

Here is a variation of an interesting play I recently heard.

1 out. R3 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd and R1 on 1st. Batter hits a line drive to the short stop (no infield fly + 2nd out). F4 catches the ball but drops it in the transfer. The plate umpire immediate states and repeats, "That's a catch, the batter's out." R3, who was off with the pitch, stopped when the ball was hit, but then continued home without tagging up. F4 throws the ball to F2, who stands on the plate and catches the ball before R3 arrives. R3 crosses home plate; however, F2 doesn't tag R3. Instead, F2 throws down to F6, who is covering 2nd base and tags out R1, who was trying to advance. The base coaches throw their hands up in the air and the defense leaves the field.

What is the plate umpire's responsibility of addressing what happened at home plate? What is the call/mechanic. How would you make the call?

I'd hesitate just slightly to see if her body language indicates that she'll make an appeal. If she doesn't say anything about the lack of a tag-up, I'm calling safe. If they want to make a fourth out appeal later (and this sitch qualifies as one), they may certainly do so.

In this sitch, it sounds like the defense didn't make a proper live ball appeal, and this would be nothing more than a DMC. In ASA, if all of the infielders have left fair territory, they've given up their right to appeal.

I'd also wonder why R1 and R3 were on the wrong bases at the start of the play, and might consider tossing the coach as a result. :D

Seems pretty ordinary to me, though.

+1

Safe call at the plate since there was no tag. The umpire can preface call with, "no tag".

No appeal available once infielders leave fair territory.

I'd also wonder how F4 caught the line drive to the short stop.

Typographical error. F4 / 2nd baseman.



I use R3-3rd, R2-2nd, & R1-1st. I think by keeping the numbers consistent with the bases, it reads more easily. I think to say R1 on 3rd and R3 on 1st just starts a conversation with confusion. Just my preference.


What, if anything, do you say regarding R3 scoring once the inning concludes?

Nothing. I'd already called her safe, so she's safe and her score counts until the defense properly appeals. Once the infielders left fair territory, they lost their chance to appeal.

I'm not sure what mechanic you're asking for. Is there something you think an umpire should do in this situation?

Does the 3rd day of trial come before the 1st if the trial started on the 2nd of the month?

Wouldn't help much if I tried to communicate in ASL in a room full of people who cannot read it. If you want to communicate with people, you need to do so in their language

Nothing to say without a prompt.

Dave, with all of the commotion and a quick throw by the catcher down to 2nd base, make may not fully hear the "no tag, safe." So I am wondering whether, for clarity, should the plate umpire, in your opinion, reiterate "Run scores, count the run?" once the 3rd out is recorded?

Not necessary. There was no force out for the third out, and we've already called her safe. Why should we treat this any differently than any other missed tag-up?

Changing the mechanic would tip off the defense that they missed something.

Out of curiosity (not being flippant here), did you call baseball before calling softball?

I began with softball and aside from an occasional baseball game, only umpire softball. I was not, however, trained under ASA, as most can tell...

This isn't just ASA. NFHS & PONY and all other softball organizations of which I am aware use the same reference format of numbering the player based upon the batting order of that half inning.

Only after no appeal is possible any longer - then I would say exactly that to the scorekeeper.

The reason you were asked about baseball is that they DO use the R3 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd nomenclature. Softball (all codes) uses R1 as the lead runner, wherever she is, R2 the next runner, etc.

I would only ask the scorekeeper if s/he got that last run, just to make sure they understand that the run goes on the board (after no appeal is possible, as Mike said).

I also brought up the baseball question because their mechanics can differ on some appeals.

I understand that. NCAA, Referee Magazine and PONY (they are clearing up the book) use it the way I worded it. Since I deal with those organizations more, I use their terminology.

I've not read all of the PONY rules, but the sections I visited in the rule book use the terminology in the order Irish mentions: R1 is most advanced runner, R2 is behind her, etc.

And this play from Referee is why I think the terminology is ludicrous:

1. R3 is on third base and R2 is on second when B4 hits a ground ball to F6. While running to third, R2 inadvertently hinders F6 who is fielding the ball. At the time of the hindrance, R3 has not reached the plate.

To go with a Sheldonism, "In what universe is there any order which runs, 3, 2, 4?" What happened to "1"?

The softball method also allows for continuity in extended and continuations of any scenario(s). The baseball method is a one and done and a complete reset.

And that is my personal preference.

Here you go. I think you can go to Page 39 for examples.

2012 PONY Girls Softball Rule Book (English Version)

*knock* *knock* *knock* Irish...

*knock* *knock* *knock* Irish...

*knock* *knock* *knock* Irish...

*knock* *knock* *knock* Irish...

*knock* *knock* *knock* Irish...

*knock* *knock* *knock* Irish...

I will say this, though... At least EsqUmp specified in his post which runners were which. Too often, people assume that everyone knows on which base R3 had started.

Not my book (not sure what "clearing up the book" means - but I see zero references to the runners in baseball-order.)

PS - Referee Magazine's reputation on this site is BARELY ahead of Joe Morgan or Lisa Hernandez. Would recommend not using them as a source for anything. :)

Bazinga!

Please help me if I'm missing something, but wouldn't this be the cousin of the IF? An intentional drop, dead ball, runners return.
Seems by the reaction of F6, here was an opportunity for a DP...

It was a line drive, according to the OP, and not an intentional drop (and PU was clear in his call).

Which is exactly how it is done. Ever try to teach mechanics by running continuous play scenario and changing the designation of each runner after each event? I'll stick with 1 being 1 from the plate to the plate, thank you very much.

"Cleaning up" means they had a lot of grammatical errors, formatting errors and too many inconsistencies. Most of them are being addressed.

xtreamump
 

A little bit Muddy, 1 means 1, & 2 is 2nd ?

When you have a post, you're more than welcome to do that.

There are a lot of good ideas and articles in Referee. Not just for softball and baseball, but other sports and other general issues as well. While I don't agree with everything they write, nor what anyone else rights, there's a lot to consider. I wouldn't put blinders on just because it wasn't the way I was necessarily trained. John Bennett, you many on this forum, including myself, hold in high regard, often writes for them.

I would concur with your opinion of Joe Morgan and Lisa Fernandez though. They are almost as bad as Joe Buck and Tim McCarver.

No offense, but I think you're missing the point. For consistency's sake, this board uses Softball nomenclature for their runners - R1 for the lead, R2 after that etc. Your posts are going to be more easily followed and responded to if you can also follow the same nomenclature. (btw - the exact opposite is true over on the baseball board - but their reaction to someone using softball nomenclature on that board is a LOT more negative and vitriol-filled than what you got here).

If you use the wrong shorthand, some of your responses will use "your" shorthand, and others will use softball shorthand, and confusion and chaos will set in. We've all seen it - a lot. This is why you're being asked to use typical softball shorthand.

I understand - and will agree there are good articles on occasion (their football stuff is generally FAR better than their softball and baseball stuff) - but they often (far too often for an umpire's taste) simply get rules or plays wrong. They used to have an Ask the Umpire feature which was wrong more often than it was right. I would say one thing ... if they say one thing and ANY other reputable source says something else, it's at least 10-1 that the other source is right.

In the last year I've emailed Todd Korth about four or five mistakes in the Referee softball section. Softball is an afterthought for NASO.

I'm not missing the point. I am literate and understand the point. I just don't agree with the significance you place on it. My language was clear. No one responding had issues submitting intelligent answers. And no one asked me to use other abbreviations. Your definition of a request is different than mine.

OK. I tried it nicely. Didn't work. My bad. No one can say I didn't try! I'm done with this windmill. Sorry to have bothered.

One more reason why my new forum is going to be "flame-free."

"This bickering is pointless." ~Governor Tarkin, Star Wars, Episode IV.

Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies.

This is the definition of an everyday play........

Joel

I would suggest that everyone ignore this troll.......he is good.....but does not even reach the top ten......that should really piss him off.

Joel