Reminder: Don't back on field, pay attention !

[bobbrix]

Some of you may enjoy this one ...

(Reminder to self:
Don’t turn back on field unless you’ve called time.
Oh, and paying attention might be a good idea, too.)



Runners on 2nd and 3rd, ONE out.

Long fly ball down the 1st base line that eventually curves out over foul territory.

F9 makes this awkward, twisted arm (and therefore seemingly spectacular) foul fly catch and is now laying on the ground as fans on both sides cheer and shout ‘yahoo!!’ and ‘great catch!!’ etc.. So, TWO out.

There’s a definite pause in the activities, so for some reason I’m thinking .... “Yes, nice catch ... time for her to get up off the ground, though. I’ll clear my indicator and prep for the next batter while I’m waiting for the ball to come back to the pitcher! Two out.”.

So, my back is turned away from Right Field (big mistake) and suddenly the runner that was on third breezes past me and now there's more cheering.

Trying to appear I'm in control, I look for the ball and find F9 has just thrown it to F4 (she is standing on 2nd base!!), and then F4 tosses it to the pitcher.

Finally, I call time and belatedly announce the runner safe at home ... I’m waiting to get questioned on how she could tag up on a foul fly but no question comes.

Ahhh, relief ... for a brief moment.

Now I look out and there’s the runner that was on 2nd , just standing by the Short Stop, looking around wondering what to do!!! I’m 99.9% sure she's been standing there since the foul fly was caught (never tagged up) ... now the 3rd base coach tells her “plays over, go back to 2nd”.

So, as my brain races, waiting for a heated argument that I missed the third out at 2nd base, I call for the next batter and get the next pitch in.

Not a peep from anyone .... whew ... got away with that one (not sure if I should feel guilty or not, though).

[Dakota]

Originally posted by bobbrix
(Reminder to self:
Don’t turn back on field unless you’ve called time.
Oh, and paying attention might be a good idea, too.)

Agree. The only think I can see wrong in the play you described is that you didn't actually see whether either runner tagged up. Assuming R1 tagged up, everything finished legally. Run scores, R2 retreats to 2B. And, even if R1 did not tag up, since the defense did not appeal, they left you off the hook so everything remains legal.

However, there is no such thing (ASA) as a foul fly ball. There is a foul ball, and there is a fly ball. A fly ball over foul territory is still a fly ball, and if caught, the ball is live and in play, just like any other fly ball.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 2nd, 2003 at 01:20 PM]

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Dakota
... snip ... Assuming R1 tagged up, everything finished legally. Run scores, R2 retreats to 2B. ... snip ...

IF R2 tagged up.

I have a habit of walking backward to the plate, or at least starting to, in fast pitch. Also, when by myself, I tell the coaches the ball is automatically dead when I turn my back. Of course in slow pitch, you call time (after checking the runners) so that's not needed.

[Edited by CecilOne on Jun 2nd, 2003 at 02:20 PM]

[AlabamaBlue]

Why not just call time if all the action has stopped instead of inventing a rule?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

This is still a "TIMING PLAY."

I would assume the reason the defense threw the ball to 2nd was that the runner, R2, had not tagged up.

If R3 had crossed the plate before this 'non-verbal' appeal was made at 2nd, the run counts and the third out is still called. You definitely can't kill the play and send the runner, who is still off base, back to second.

Sounds like nobody really knew what was going on and perhaps F4 wasn't making an appeal.... and the offensive coach got away with one by acting like it was a deadball and sending his runner back to 2nd.

Of course during the flight of the ball, you and your partner should be talking. PU should take the tag of R3. BU should take that tag of R2. As PU you should get up the 3rd baseline so you can see both catch and tag as much as possible. BU should easily see both 2nd and the catch for his judgement.

I've actually gotten in the habit of stating out loud for all the infield to hear "Tag is good." Amazingly nobody has ever seemed to notice because I still get the players and coaches that want to make an appeal.... so I restate "The tag was good" and make the safe sign.

I know it may not be the best habit because when the tag is not good, I don't say anything. This difference could tip off the defense. So far no one has noticed my initial call and no one has complained.

[bobbrix]

yes, downtown, i believe nobody knew what was going on anymore ... not sure if the base coach even knew he got away with one

(( as others have declared on other posts, 2 umpires???
holy smokes, i would undoubtedly wake up and find
i was only dreaming ... i would never expect a base
umpire until, maybe, divisional playoffs ...even then
i would be totally surprised ))

anyway, yes, i felt the runner at 2nd would have been
called out for the non-verbal appeal (even though i don't
think F9 threw it to F4 with that in mind; she was just throwing it in to the first person that looked at her)

but, like i tried to put in writing, i had already mistakenly called time and then noticed her standing between the bases ... so i just wanted to get the entire play out of everyones' minds ...


as always, thanks to all for the comments, etc

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by AlabamaBlue
Why not just call time if all the action has stopped instead of inventing a rule?

Only because calling time in fast pitch is not expected so sometimes ignored, and it takes conscious effort on my part so it's better to cover it with a ground rule, and it keeps pressure on the teams to realize there need to be >1 umpire. Besides, as I said, most of the time it isn't needed because I walk backward if I'm anywhere near home plate.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
[B]This is still a "TIMING PLAY."

... snip ... If R3 had crossed the plate before this 'non-verbal' appeal was made at 2nd, the run counts and the third out is still called. You definitely can't kill the play and send the runner, who is still off base, back to second.

Sounds like nobody really knew what was going on and perhaps F4 wasn't making an appeal.... and the offensive coach got away with one by acting like it was a deadball and sending his runner back to 2nd.

Of course during the flight of the ball, you and your partner should be talking. PU should take the tag of R3. BU should take that tag of R2. As PU you should get up the 3rd baseline so you can see both catch and tag as much as possible. BU should easily see both 2nd and the catch for his judgement.

... snip ...

Very good supplement, but where did R3 and the BU come from? I hope you get out of the "tag is good" habit.

[AlabamaBlue]

Ah, I didn't realize there was only 1 ump.

[WestMichBlue]

"anyway, yes, i felt the runner at 2nd would have been
called out for the non-verbal appeal (even though i don't
think F9 threw it to F4 with that in mind; she was just throwing it in to the first person that looked at her)

No, no, no! A non-verbal appeal must have a definitive action that is very clear to you that the player is appealing to you to make a call. Even if a player is screaming for the ball, and runs over and stomps on the base, I still want to hear from her "she missed the base, Blue" so I know what she is up to.

Now - when a runner is caught off base when a player makes a spectatular catch, you are going to have a very definable appeal. The coach is yelling to get back, the runner is scrambling back, the infielder is getting to the base, and the ball is on its way. If the ball gets there first, you will automatically call the out. NOT because it is your call - because it isn't. Its called because it is a very obvious non-verbal appeal.

WMB

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
... snip ... if a player is screaming for the ball, and runs over and stomps on the base
... snip ... a runner is caught off base when a player makes a spectatular catch, you are going to have a very definable appeal. The coach is yelling to get back, the runner is scrambling back, the infielder is getting to the base, and the ball is on its way. ... snip ...

Assuming I visualize your description correctly, I think the first is just as obvious. In the second, I can't assume the outfielder knows the runner's status or that the infielder wasn't just covering the base from habit or for a succeeding runner.