Calling IP
 

Was thinking about option plays yesterday, with regards to the new NCAA rule, and realized I have developed a habit and wanted to get feedback from others about what they do.

When you are the plate umpire and your base umpire calls an IP (nice and loud and you hear and register the call), do you still make a pitch call if the ball is not hit? Why or why not?

Reason I ask is, if it's just a pitch, the option is obvious, ball and advance (if applicable) so is there really a need to make the call on the pitch. I'm curious about all the rulesets, not just NCAA, about the reasoning why you do or do not, would or would not, make a call.

Ip's should only be loud enough for the player closest to the caller to hear the verbal. You should still call the pitch, because the pitch is still a pitch, ball or strike may make a difference in the choice.

You do not want to call the IP too loudly so that everyone freezes because of the IP.

This is true of every rule set.

Could not agree more. Think how loud the BU would have to be for the PU to hear over the commotion of the dugouts, coaches and catcher screaming instructions and the cheering fans. Not to mention the point that the PU should be concentrating on the pitch.

Same reason you don't scream "obstruction". Players just stop playing and that isn't what is supposed to happen.

I have reformed. No more waking the umps on the next field!

Hi, Rich.

I will throw my agreement in with the group....The BU should only be announcing the IP to the players closest to him/her. There have been occassions where I have heard my BU call the IP, but there are far more when I have not. I will usually pick up the DDB signal out of the corner of my eye, but even then, I don't have enough time to process that before the pitch arrives and my brain is in the decision and calling cycle.

I would estimate that I hear the IP 70% of the time, maybe more. Maybe I have rabbit hears; they are kind of big. But the response is about what I expected since that is what we are taught. Somehow, I have gotten into the habit of not completing my call when I hear the IP called and there is no further action on the pitch. I still make the judgement, but by the time its caught and I delay my verbal and signal, I've managed to recognize the IP and not finish.

So now I'm thinking of situations where it would make a difference if the pitch is called or not and so far I have but one:

The result of the pitch will impact the option if runners advance more than one base without the batter making contact with the ball. It would have to be a called strike (but not 3rd strike with two outs). Runner advancement would most likely be on a steal with further advancement on an overthrow of some sort. Options: strike on the batter (out if third) and runners have advanced, or ball and one base each.

Can you think of any others?

But does the OC have the option if the pitch isn't batted or the batter becomes a batter-runner?

This goes back to the other recent post where R1 from 1st steals on an illegal pitch and advances to 3rd on a passed ball or wild pitch.

Since the pitch was not hit and the batter did not become a base-runner, by rule the OC does NOT have a choice.

Our association has determined that the ball should become DEAD as soon as the pitch ends (not hit). This kills the play and we award R1 2nd and reverse any strike that may be called.

By killing the play, we prevent any possible outs that occur after R1 reaches 2nd and also any possible injuries on R1.

Does anyone else agree with this interpretation?

Not an NCAA specific situation - I asked this in another post and I guess no one had an answer to it:

If the batter takes the pitch and you've already signaled/verbalized "illegal", is there a mechanic to stop baserunners who may be in motion?

Do you immediately call "dead ball? Or do you wait for the "play" to continue? If we can avoid someone getting hurt via sliding or being hit with a thrown ball, that's a good thing.

Illegal pitch is not a dead ball, it is a delay dead ball. Play continues. If a runner runs, then let her. Our job is not to prevent injuries, our job is to officiate the play on the field. The penalty for IP is a ball on the batter and all runners advance one base, or the result of the play. If you dead ball it, you've effected the result of the play and will probably have a coach discussing your life choices with you very shortly. Let the play finish, then call time and apply the penalty.

Didn't read the rest of this thread? :)

The illegal pitch is delayed dead to allow the bater the opportunity to hit the ball or otherwise become a baserunner. Once that opportunity has passed, then the ball becomes dead. I cannot comprehend allowing the defense to record a possible out on an illegal pitch when no option can be given to the OC.:rolleyes:

R1 on 2, IP, base hit to CF and R1 thrown out at home after BR reaches 1st safely :D

I've had several discussions in the past weeks regarding this issue. There have been some interesting points brought up along the way, both here and in my other travels.

Taking a complete look at the possibilites that can result during a play that starts with an IP, I now wonder why an offensive coach doesn't just send all his runners once s/he recognizes one has been called.

By definition, an IP is a DDB to allow the play to be completed so the offense can select the most advantageous result. The play does not end until the ball is held by the pitcher in the circle and all runners are standing on a base.

Does it seem so outrageous that if you have R1 on first, and an IP that is not hit, to have your runner jog to second and continue to third. The worst that can happen is she gets tagged out and the coach takes the IP option. I can totally see a defense pointing in confusion that 'the runner only gets one base on an IP', 'why is she still advancing'; but doing nothing to stop her.

Anyone disagree with my conclusion? Am I just really late to the table having this sink in now? All this option play discussion from the NCAA rule change has gotten me thinking about these situations in more depth.

I no longer call college ball, but in NFHS the offense doesn't have an option if the IP isn't hit or the batter becomes a BR. Once it isn't hit, dead ball, make the award.

Wade, that's a "depends" type of answer. As Mike stated prior in the thread, there is a time when the IP is canceled (ASA/NCAA). In fed play, yes, the offense should just keep running as the coach will always get a choice if the ball is put into play.

As also stated, when the ball is not put into play, NCAA would allow for a choice while Fed does not. Your example would be interesting to see in a game (similar to a runner who is obstructed rounding first and then jogs to second - that I have seen).

I'm probably missing something somewhere, but where in the NFHS Rule book does it state the option is removed if the ball isn't hit fair or foul or the batter becomes a base runner?
Just asking, don't mean to get anybody angry.

In NFHS the option does not go away if the ball is not hit by the batter, it exists only IF the ball is hit.

The quote is from the 2011 rule book as I don't have the 2012 book in pdf form.

The 2011 case book has this play:

Which shows that the batter reaching base does not negate the option, if the batter reached on a play where the ball was hit.

The play that is put forth as an argument for the offense to always have the option is on a wild pitch/passed ball with runners on second and third. The batting team is down by one run. The catcher retrieves the ball and makes a bad throw allowing both runners to score, putting the team at bat ahead. If the pitch was an illegal pitch only one runner can score in NFHS, since the ball was not hit. The defense in effect benefits from violating a rule.

Good question regarding whether there is an actual "effect" difference if you do or don't rule on the pitch as a ball or strike.

It's a shame that it has led so many clones to regurgitate the discussion on how loud to call an illegal pitch.

People should really start a new thread if they want to start a string of non-responsive answers.


Always make the call. The coach will have the option to take the result of the play (assuming all runners, including the batter, haven't advanced safely one base). Without having a complete play, the umpire wouldn't be able to articulate the result of the play. Who knows what coaches may do and why.

With that said, if you use an indicator, I recommend not clicking anything if you hear your partner call an illegal pitch. That way, when you go to register it, you don't have to erase strikes and add a ball, etc.

Not so.

If R2 on 2nd base is the winning run. She is stealing 3rd base. Illegal pitch is thrown and called a ball (out of the zone and not swung at). F2 throws to F5 to retire R2 at 3rd base. F2 throws the ball into the outfield. R2 comes around to score.

The ball is NOT dead when B3 doesn't swing.

The coach can take the result of the play (since not all runners, including the batter, advanced one base) or enforcement of the penalty. I would prefer to score the winning run over getting a ball on the batter and moving R2 to 3rd base.

I would prefer to score R2 on the result of the play.

I believe that is an NCAA ruling. In NFHS, the ball has to be hit in order to give the coach an option.

Marvin quoted the applicable rule:

NFHS 6-1-1

DEAD BALL!!! None of this matters, ball is dead.

Except for that pesky rule that says it is.

xtreamump
 

Hey Mike,

I am starting to feel an Umpire Bond here... IP is DD, OC takes play or penalty ?

Why is the ball Dead in ASA ?

IT'S NOT DEAD, as stated by Mike. It's not dead in ASA. It's not dead in NCAA. I must really be missing something here (maybe I am).

Illegal Pitch Effect: "If the batter hits the ball and reaches first base safely, and if all other runners have advanced at least one base on the batted ball, the illegal pitch is nullified." "Otherwise the manager has the option to take the result of the play or the illegal pitch is enforced by awarding a ball to the batter and advance all runners one base."

The play must be completed before the umpire calls "time" to address enforcement of an illegal pitch.

In this case, the batter did not safely reach first base. Therefore, the coach has an option to take the result of the play or enforcement of the illegal pitch (ball on batter and all runners get a base).

Additionally, "An umpire may not call time while any play is in progress" (except injured player needing immediate attention).

WHY IS THE BALL DEAD WHEN THE PLAY ISN'T OVER? :rolleyes:

xtreamump
 

Come on Mike tell us something that we don't know..

If you guys can't make note of the rule-set you are discussing, and/or keep them straight, you're going to have a lot of problems here.

Only that NFHS and ASA enforce/penalize illegal pitches differently.

My advice would be to take a little more time actually reading what you're responding to before telling others they don't know what they're talking about. Maybe you could use some of the time wasted on berating people who don't stick to a narrowly defined course of discussion that you deem suitable or thinking up catchy quips about "clones".

xtreamump
 

The code here that the nice gentleman is referencing is NCAA/ASA, not Federation. I do not follow NCAA so I have no coment on that .:D

xtreamump
 

If you experienced Forum users would get threw a thread without killing the issue. It would not get hostile where you threaten people. There is no problem that you or any other clone can do that will keep myself or ESQUMP off of "YOUR" Forum.:(

xtreamump
 

One more, in Sept, 1991 I took Military Convoys from Ft. Hood, TX. to the port of Houston. To prepare for deployment to Desert Shield/Storm .We had a stop every time in Katy, TX. There were so many nice people there, very nice place. ;)

Where did I get hostile or threaten you? Good grief you're a mess.

Arbo clearly asked a question about NFHS rules. Esq told him he was wrong. I replied that no, Esq was wrong. Then you get snarky with me - first with "Why is this a dead ball in ASA?" - something I clearly did NOT say, and then with "Come on Mike, tell us something we don't know. Your buddy or clone, whichever the case, said, it's NOT dead as stated by ME, in ASA or NCAA - again, we were talking about NFHS.

And I (???!?!!???) am the one being hostile or threatening? Seriously?

And me clarifying for you in nice big letters where your confusion / error was gets greeted by this accusatory crap? The appropriate response would have been, "Crap, you're right, I totally misread that. Sorry". Not the garbage you spewed.

Thanks for your mention of Katy, my reply, with exactly the same tone, is that I lived in NY for 8 months. There were so many nice people there too. ;)

Roger Clemens' people...

xtreamump
 

We are good now, "Starting Over" ? I love to Umpire Softball, I also like to have a little fun. We are still under Snow up here , but there is a Sports Complex that has Softball Tournaments every weekend. 12U this week, its about an hour drive one way for me. I will have 4 games tomorrow, most Umpires live close by and do 2 games on Sat. & 2 on Sun. Living a dream.

It was rather clear that I was directly referring to ASA and NCAA. That was made known by using words like "ASA" and "NCAA." If it helps clear things up for future posts, I will label my posts with the rule code. It certainly wasn't my intent to cause confusion...

4 games Saturday, 54 degrees, windy as heck. Felt like 40 degrees. Missed the once-yearly opportunity to wear my jacket.

I think the confusion came from you quoting a person who said NFHS in his post and telling him he was wrong.