Check swing...runner

[Andy]

This was posted on McGriff's as part of a response to a scenario. I thought that it deserved discussion on its own:

Runner at 1st when the batter checks her swing on a 3-1 count. The PU calls it a ball, so R1 trots down to 2nd on the walk. But a quick appeal is made and the call is reversed for a strike call.

Obviously, the batter comes back to the plate with a 3-2 count, but what do we do with the runner? My instinct would say to return her to first. I can't remember the ASA rule citation, but it's the one about ruling on situations not specifically covered. Thoughts and opinions?

The McGriffs thread: http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...ges/14057.html

[Dakota]

My first instinct was, live ball, runners allowed to advance, runner stays on 2B. But, then, rule 10-6C does include the possiblity of a reversed call placing the defense in jeopardy.

If R1 was advancing solely in response to the BALL call, later reversed, then return her to 1B.

If, OTOH, R1 is off with the pitch on a steal attempt, leave her at 2B.

That's my thoughts pending further discussion...

[greymule]

What if R1 is off with the pitch and both she and the defense continue seemingly unaware of the ball 4 call and R1 is out at 2B? Out? Or does the fact that ball 4 was called protect R1, regardless of the reverse on appeal?

What if F2's throw goes into center field? Do we as umps try to cement the ball/strike call as quickly as possible, or do we wait until R1 advances as far as she can or is put out?

I'm surprised that in all my years of FP, I've not had to deal with this potential mess.

Is it possible that the best way to prevent a problem is for BU to make the strike call immediately, since he knows it will be appealed anyway? If the batter checked her swing, he of course would do nothing.

[pob14]

Somewhere in Carl Childress's writings on baseball, he recommends in any such situation (possible ball 4, possible DTS, etc.) that the crew immediately appeal without being asked. I.e.:

Me: BALL! (Immediately points down) ANDY! Did she go?

Andy: (Yes she went) or (No she didn't)


Of course, Andy is also hustling into position for the steal call.

And also of course, If I had just called the doggone strike to begin with, we wouldn't be in this mess!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by pob14
Somewhere in Carl Childress's writings on baseball, he recommends in any such situation (possible ball 4, possible DTS, etc.) that the crew immediately appeal without being asked. I.e.:

Me: BALL! (Immediately points down) ANDY! Did she go?

Andy: (Yes she went) or (No she didn't)


Of course, Andy is also hustling into position for the steal call.

And also of course, If I had just called the doggone strike to begin with, we wouldn't be in this mess!

Could care less what Carl Childress has to say about baseball, this is a softball board and this man has no respect for our game and very little for it's umpires.

There is a way to handle this, though most would probably reject it as detrimental to the game.

Since this requires the umpires to be distracted from the play on the field, maybe it should go more like this:

ME: Ball
CATCHER: Check, please?
ME: TIME! [Remove mask, take two steps away from
the plate area] SWING? (pointing to partner)
TOM: YES (with a hammer)

The umpire suspended play under ASA 10.8.B which keeps the runner from advancing. Before you jump on me by saying this doesn't apply because it relates directly to the umpire calling a play, I will disagree. The play has been called, you are acting on an appeal.

Like I said, though, this would probably not be acceptable to many, but it gets the job done.

[AlabamaBlue]

What if the runner is already on the move?

[whiskers_ump]

Mike,

If R1 is already on the move and you kill the play while
that action is going on, you are taking away a possible
stolen base from the offense. I have and will continue
to immediately go to my partner if I have any doubt, prior
to being asked by F2. I realize BU has other responsibilities
when R1 breaks for 2B, but usually they have had their look
and will know if yes, or no. {of course with 3 man no prob
er limb.}

glen

[Roger Greene]

This may upset some people, but with the intervening play, unless the batter screws herself into the ground with a full swing, the BU should respond that she didn't go.

The BU should do the same thing if it is strike 3 with a passed ball and less than 4 balls. After the catcher recovers the ball and walkes back to the plate, she looks at you and asks for the appeal on the swing. Are you going to allow the batter to be put at that much of a disadvantage?

IMO, same type sitch.

Roger Greene

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by AlabamaBlue
What if the runner is already on the move?

What are you going to do if the runner on the move is gunned out by the catcher?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Mike,

If R1 is already on the move and you kill the play while
that action is going on, you are taking away a possible
stolen base from the offense. I have and will continue
to immediately go to my partner if I have any doubt, prior
to being asked by F2. I realize BU has other responsibilities
when R1 breaks for 2B, but usually they have had their look
and will know if yes, or no. {of course with 3 man no prob
er limb.}

glen

Hold on, Glen. I didn't suggest anyone change anything they were doing. I just offered a possible method in which to handle a situation which was brought to this board as a possible problem.

If there was doubt, why make any call at all?

And, also, as I just asked bamablue, what are you going to call if R1 gets thrown out at 2B? By calling ball, are you not now depriving the defense the possibility of getting a legitimate out at 2B? What if the runner checks up and slows down when the pitch is called a ball? Are you going to protect that runner by saying you placed her in jeopardy?

Seems like the only folks you want to do right by is the offense. Why shouldn't the defense receive equal consideration? After all, they are not the one who called the pitch a ball.





[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on May 24th, 2003 at 08:52 AM]

[AlabamaBlue]

I think the only thing you can do is immediately go to your partner, and then loudly mirror his call "YES YES SHE WENT SHE WENT", or "NO NO BALL 4".

What happens if the runner is half way to 2nd, and you call time and ask your partner, and he says she did go? Are you going to allow the runner to continue to 2nd? Or bring her back? Either way you're screwed. Well-coached players will continue to play on a check swing like that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by AlabamaBlue
I think the only thing you can do is immediately go to your partner, and then loudly mirror his call "YES YES SHE WENT SHE WENT", or "NO NO BALL 4".

What happens if the runner is half way to 2nd, and you call time and ask your partner, and he says she did go? Are you going to allow the runner to continue to 2nd? Or bring her back? Either way you're screwed. Well-coached players will continue to play on a check swing like that.

This is true. If the answer is "no", it is nothing, but a walk. If it is "yes", then the "placed in jeopardy" argument applies both ways.

COACH: You took a base away from my runner.
ME: Coach, have you seen this catcher throw? I may have saved you an out!

or

COACH: You cost my team an out by calling a ball and then changing it.
ME: Coach, the runner had a good jump. Your catcher didn't have a prayer.

And so on and so on.....you will not satisfy everyone no matter what you do. This is why I suggested using rule 10 to just kill the play, replace the runners and get the call. I don't expect people to do this, it was just a suggestion based on the given scenario.

[CecilOne]

If the PU realizes that it's going to be appealed, what about not announcing the call for a second and seeing if the runner is gone. If so, let it play, make the call after the fact (the catcher will think it's a strike anyway). If not, the runner stays at 1st if the BU rules it a swing/strike.