ASA unreported sub

[shipwreck]

In ASA the rule says that an unreported sub can be appealed while the player is in the game. We had this situation last night. In the third inning the visiting team brings to my attenion ( I am PU ) that a girl from other team hadn't reported in the other half of the inning. She had batted but they didn't bring it to my attention then but later. My question is, is there a time frame that they can appeal this? If she batted or played defense but now is waiting for the next half inning, is she in the game? Dave

[Dakota]

The time frame is "while the player is in the game."

In your case, the player was no longer in the game. Therefore the protest (it's a protest, not an appeal) is invalid and not recognized. All earlier play is legal.

I'm not so sure about this, but I believe that the alleged unreported substitute was never officially in the game, and still has all of her entry / reentry rights available.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
The time frame is "while the player is in the game."

In your case, the player was no longer in the game. Therefore the protest (it's a protest, not an appeal) is invalid and not recognized. All earlier play is legal.

I'm not so sure about this, but I believe that the alleged unreported substitute was never officially in the game, and still has all of her entry / reentry rights available.

Speaking ASA

An unreported substitute shall be disqualified when discovered in the game. However, the team may report the sub at anytime without penalty. This is handled as a protest by the opposing team.

If there is no legal replacement for the unreported sub (another sub or a legal reentry), the team may play shorthanded. If discovered while an active runner in this situation, they will be removed from the base, DQed and an out will be declared. (ASA 4.6.B)

[Dakota]

I agree with all that you said, Mike, but in this situation the unreported sub was no longer in the game - she was in the dugout while her team was on defense (at least that is what I understood Dave to be saying).

Is my understanding of the rule correct? (i.e. protest not recognized since the player is no longer in the game.)

If the protest is not recognized, then the unreported sub is not disqualified. How about her status as a sub?

[CecilOne]

My impression from the original post was that she batted and then returned to the dugout waiting for the team to go on defense. But the question arose in the bottom of the inning, so her team was at bat, which is why I'm confused abou the sequence.

A substitute is in the game once they are in position (offense or defense) and a pitch is thrown, play made, inning ended, etc. If no one was reported as a substitute for the unreported player, then I believe the unreported player is still in the game.

[Dakota]

... a girl from other team hadn't reported in the other half of the inning. She had batted but they didn't bring it to my attention then but later.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, because it is not crystal clear, but this sound like the kid batted. 3 outs were made. Other team leaves field. Her team takes the field. She remains in the dugout. She is no longer in the game.

Then, Dave asks this question,

If she batted or played defense but now is waiting for the next half inning, is she in the game?

How's this: Call the unreported sub S1 and the player she replaced B1. S1 clearly entered the game when she batted or when she played defense for B1. If B1 has reentered, S1 is no longer in the game. If B1 has not yet reentered, then S1 is still in the game. Time isn't the issue - whether B1 has reentered is.

Dave, if I've got this all mollixed up, please clarify.

[shipwreck]

It probably was me that incorrectly asked the question. The girl who was unreported batted in the third inning, with nobody bringing to my attention about her being unreported. When this team was done batting in this half inning, and while they were getting ready to go play defense, the other team brought this to my attention. Here is my question. Is this player considered IN the game and can she still be disqualified at this time? Dave

[whiskers_ump]

Dave,

I would say she would be disqualified when discovered and properly
protested by the offended team while the player is in the game.
I would say at this point the player is still in the game unless
the team manager or player in violation has informed the umpire
prior to the offended team's protest, then there is no violation
regardless of how long the player was legally in the game. If the
team in violation has no other subs to replace the disqualified
player, treat it same as the shorthanded rule.

Just my thoughts,
glen

[Dakota]

Originally posted by shipwreck
It probably was me that incorrectly asked the question. The girl who was unreported batted in the third inning, with nobody bringing to my attention about her being unreported. When this team was done batting in this half inning, and while they were getting ready to go play defense, the other team brought this to my attention. Here is my question. Is this player considered IN the game and can she still be disqualified at this time? Dave

OK... unless the player she sub'ed for has taken the field, I'd say she is still in the game, so the protest is allowed and the player is DQed.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Dave,

I would say she would be disqualified when discovered and properly
protested by the offended team while the player is in the game.
I would say at this point the player is still in the game unless
the team manager or player in violation has informed the umpire
prior to the offended team's protest, then there is no violation
regardless of how long the player was legally in the game. If the
team in violation has no other subs to replace the disqualified
player, treat it same as the shorthanded rule.

Just my thoughts,
glen

Remember, we are speaking of an unreported sub. If there is no doubt that the individual in question took part in the game, she is an unreported sub and DQed.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Remember, we are speaking of an unreported sub. If there is no doubt that the individual in question took part in the game, she is an unreported sub and DQed.

But, doesn't the rule say the protest has to be made while the player is still in the game?

Apparently, this one was still in the game, but what if the unreported sub has been replaced by the original player before the other team protests? Is there any penalty?

I don't see how this is different, in principle, from appealing a BOO after the next pitch. Too bad, too late.

Since the rule says, "The use of an unreported substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is in the game," why would this be different? Am I reading the rule wrong?

I can't find a case play where the unreported substitute is discovered after he has left the game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

But, doesn't the rule say the protest has to be made while the player is still in the game?

Apparently, this one was still in the game, but what if the unreported sub has been replaced by the original player before the other team protests? Is there any penalty?

I don't see how this is different, in principle, from appealing a BOO after the next pitch. Too bad, too late.

Since the rule says, "The use of an unreported substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is in the game," why would this be different? Am I reading the rule wrong?

I can't find a case play where the unreported substitute is discovered after he has left the game.

Yes, it does, but think this out. Say an unreported substitue enters the game. There is no doubt or discussion on this issue from either team. Now, just because the opposing team and you fail to catch this, you are going to allow this player to retain their substitution privileges and enter for any of the 9,10 or 12 players in the line-up? For that matter, say you did notice it, but didn't do anything about it.

Jane batted and hit a HR for Susie in the clean-up position in the 4th inning, but did not report. Then in the 7th, you are going to allow her to bat for Debbie in the lead-off position with the game on the line. What are you going to tell the opposing coach when it is brought to your attention that Jane hit the HR for Susie in the 4th and cannot bat for Debbie? "Yes, coach, you are correct, but I'm going to allow it because you didn't catch it at the time"?

Another possibility. Jane bats for Susie and gets a double. Coach is granted time and runs Susie out to 2B. However, s/he just turns the other way and does not report. After a pitch to the batter, the coach complains of the unreported substitute, but Jane is no longer in the game. You cannot call Susie out because you don't ever have her leaving the game, yet you just saw and exchange of runners without anyone reporting such. You cannot blow it off, because the offending coach has yet to say anything to you.

And, yes, I'm aware that most on this board would have handled this with preventive umpiring and insisting on talking to the coach who made the change.

I will not debate that the wording indicates exactly what you are saying in the rule, it does. However, the POE makes no such statement. It only states that when the unreported substitute is brought to your attention, the player will be declared illegal.

Is this a problem waiting to happen? It is if a coach is reading this thread

[Dakota]

Thanks for sticking with this, Mike.

As I reread the rule, I think maybe the problem is classic ASA poor syntax.

The rule starts out saying the unreported sub will be DQed "when discovered." OK - when discovered, now or later. Same wording in the POE.

Perhaps the next sentence I was quoting was actually meant to say... "If the player is still in the game, the use of an unreported substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team."

Either way, it needs to be cleaned up.