Crow Hop / Leaping

[sprivitor]

After reading a previous thread with many replies and reading an excellent reply posted by WMB, I have a question with regards to leaping. In little league, leaping is illegal - not sure about other associations. I also coach and was at an ASA tournament where both pitchers of a well-known team were leaping off the rubber and landing 1 1/2 to 2 feet in front of the rubber after the delivery. Very possible that the girls were not creating a second push off point or impetus which, I think, is needed to penalize for crow hopping; however, is leaping (both feet in air) illegal in ASA?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by sprivitor
...is leaping (both feet in air) illegal in ASA?

Yes, unless the reason the pivot foot is in the air is due to a hole in front of the pitcher's plate.

If both feet are airborne above the plane of the level ground, that is a leap and it is illegal in ASA (and all other fastpitch rule books I have seen).

However, small leaps (1" or so) seem to be rarely (if ever) called at the upper levels (high school age and up). It is still illegal, though, according to the book.

[WestMichBlue]

A Leap is different from a Crow Hop. In both cases, both feet are airborne. If the pivot foot lands first, and pushes off from that point, that is a crow hop. Illegal.

If the stride foot lands first and the pitch is delivered off that stride foot landing, that is a leap. (The pivot foot may land simultaneous with the stride foot, but it does not plant and push, just drags along.) Illegal today. However, it was only a few years ago that the Leap was legal for ASA Men's FP, but was never legal for Women's ASA (or NFHS) FP. (My '92 ASA book still has the leap as legal.)

WMB

[CecilOne]

by WestMichBlue
A Leap is different from a Crow Hop. In both cases, both feet are airborne. If the pivot foot lands first, and pushes off from that point, that is a crow hop. Illegal.

Do both feet actually have to be simultaneously airborne for a crow-hop? Can't a pitcher move the pivot first and push-off into the non-pivot step from in front of the pitching plate?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne

Do both feet actually have to be simultaneously airborne for a crow-hop? Can't a pitcher move the pivot first and push-off into the non-pivot step from in front of the pitching plate?

Cecil, the answer to your questions are "No" and "Yes." WMB's statement I underlined is not true. A crow hop does not actually require a hop. The ASA rule says it "is defined as the act of a pitcher who steps, hops, or drags off the front of the pitcher's plate..." The key requirement is that somehow she got her pivot foot in front of the plate and pushed off from there.

[WestMichBlue]

I was providing a narrow definition of crow hop as it related to Leap - in other words, I was answering Spivitor's original question.

Based on all the conversaton on this board and over at the NFHS board, I would hope by now that we all know there are two basic moves that can result in a crow hop.

1. A pitcher shifts her weight back to the stride foot and lifts her pivot foot off the plate. On the weight shift forward she replants her pivot foot on the plate, or immediately in front of the plate - and pushes off from there. Crow Hop - illegal.

2. After the initial push-off, and as part of the forward momentum, both feet are airborne and the pivot foot lands first (somewhere in front of the plate) and pushes from there! Crow Hop - illegal.

Unless you played, watched, or umpired Mens FP more than 10 years ago you probably have not seen a "Leap." All I was trying to do was add some historical perspective. I have never seen a Leap in girl's FP; it is not easy to do. I have seen what many want to call a crow hop when the pivot foot is airborne and lands in front of the plate. But, as I mentioned in the prior posting, the knee has to buckle and the pitcher has to re-push from that point to be a crow hop. If it is just landing and dragging then I do not call it a crow hop.

WMB

[CecilOne]

1) That's pretty much what I thought, that you don't actually need both feet airborne simultaneously to crow-hop.
2) I also don't think the pivot has to leave the ground at all to push off illegally in front of the plate. It might not be a crow-hop, but it's still illegal.
3) If the pitcher has both feet off the ground at the same time and lands on both or lands on the stride foot and drags the pivot, I call that a leap. In other words, during the stride the pivot foot also leaves the ground, even though it doesn't replant. If both feet are off the ground (above plate level) at the same time, that is illegal as far as I know.

[turk]

If you read the definition of leaping carefully, there is no prohibition against the pivot foot catching air, hole or no hole. The entire body, and both pivot and non-pivot foot have to be airborne at the same time, as the delivery is completed, with release occuring simultaneous to a return to the ground. People tend to ignore the release timing component of the rule, and focus too much on whether the back foot catches air. The problem is the "back foot maintaining contact language" that contradicts the definition. I have seen rule drafts clarifying this issue.

The reality is that the rules were added to prevent pitchers (mostly adult males) from crow-hopping, re-planting closer to the plate, and then leaping from the newly established point. If a pitcher pushes off from the pitchers plate, and catches air with her back foot before she drags it through because she is an aggressive figure-four style pitcher, she is not violating the letter or spirit of the rule. In fact, in the July 2000 issue of "Referee" magazine there is an article that criticizes the leaping rule for that very reason.

Officials are always supposed to call violations within the intended spirit of the rule, which is why so few call leaps. Finding a true leap, under the rule's definition, is very difficult (picture both feet in the air for the same period of time, returning at the same time, and a simultaneous release). Moreover, crow-hopping is much more pervasive, and much more dangerous, because the pitcher starts her push and drag closer to the plate. The key is the re-plant, which is usually pretty obvious, and should be illegal.

Check out the article I mentioned. It is a good, thorough review of these rules.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by sprivitor
After reading a previous thread with many replies and reading an excellent reply posted by WMB, I have a question with regards to leaping. In little league, leaping is illegal - not sure about other associations. I also coach and was at an ASA tournament where both pitchers of a well-known team were leaping off the rubber and landing 1 1/2 to 2 feet in front of the rubber after the delivery. Very possible that the girls were not creating a second push off point or impetus which, I think, is needed to penalize for crow hopping; however, is leaping (both feet in air) illegal in ASA?

SPRIVITOR,

Did you receive the package? Hope it helps.

glen
AFA, ASA, LL, PONY, NFHS, NSA, USSSA, & USFA

[Dakota]

Originally posted by turk
In fact, in the July 2000 issue of "Referee" magazine there is an article that criticizes the leaping rule for that very reason.

That must have been back when Referee considered Softball to be a real sport.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Dakota

That must have been back when Referee considered Softball to be a real sport. [/B]

Tom:

I thought that as of a few months back they reinstated us as a "real sport." Am I wrong?

[turk]

It may be the fact that in July 2000 the rules were relatively new, and thus justified some coverage in Referee. I have been on a quest for clarity and education on these rules because I see the calls blown so much in Little League. Generally, the more experienced umps in travel ball know the difference. Referee had the only article I could find with any analysis.