Girls ASA 12U game. Runner at 1st no outs. Batter hits a weak line drive that F3 traps (no call from umps), runner at first breaks to second then thinking that F3 caught the ball in the air, dives back to 1st base untouched. F3 throws to F4 at 1st base, runner has hand on bag and getting off of the ground, batter-runner now standing on 1st. umps call a double play. Would the correct call be that the lead runner is out?

I'll make an assumtion here that the throw did not beat the batter/runner to first. If that was the case the lead runner would be out, when tagged, or the runner entitled to the bag is safe which is the batter/runner. In this case R1 was forced to advance and is no longer entitled to first. With that said, had the throw to first beat the batter/runner and she was out, then R1 was no longer forced and can remain on first.
It is not always the lead runner that is out when two players occupy the same bag. The runner that is entitled to the base would be safe and the other runner, when tagged is out. If the lead runner is not forced to advance, then the trailing runner is out when tagged.

The throw did not beat the runner

The BR beat the throw. R1 and the BR (now R2) are both standing on 1B. F3 has presumably caught the ball and has her foot on the bag.

I haven't seen a tag, yet. No outs (yet).

F3 must tag R1, or R1 must attempt to reach 2B before being tagged.

If everybody just stands there looking confused, I'd give them time to allow coaching to happen. Eventually, someone will get a clue.

<B>If everybody just stands there looking confused, I'd give them time to allow coaching to happen. Eventually, someone will get a clue.</B>

Remember you are talking about a 12U coach(Parent). Lighting would have to strike and a cow jump over the moon before the light comes on in the Coaching Clue Hat :)

Also, the force is still on at 2B so R1 can be put out by tagging 2B.

The only way it could be a double play is if the fielder touched the base before the BR and tagged R1 before the runner reached the base going back.

However, if the BR is safe, the fielder can tag R1 out even if R1 is in contact with 1st base.

With both R1 & BR on base if they had tagged R1 with the ball, even though shes on base, she would have been out, correct?

Yes, you are correct. When the batter became a batter/runner (BR), R1 was forced to advance to 2nd, so she no longer had a legal right to 1st. As a general rule of thumb, when two runners are both on the same base, have your fielder keep tagging both of them until the umpire calls one of the runners out.

I had an interesting play in a JV game last year. The JV field is tucked in between a parking lot and a large maintenance building, so that the wall of the maintenance building actually forms part of the right outfield fence. There is a line about 20 feet up on the wall, which is the "home-run line". Home coach explains that if the ball hits on or above the line it is a homerun, below the line is in play. My partner (the PU) emphasizes that if the ball bounces off the wall, that it cannot be caught for an out. Both coaches nod in agreement, so we start the game.

Top of the 3rd, the visitors have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs, when the #4 hitter drives this towering shot off the wall, but well below (~3ft) the HR line. F9 follows the flight of the ball into the wall, and makes a relatively easy catch as it comes off the wall. The 1st base coach (who was at the plate meeting) is yelling for the BR to go to 2nd, meanwhile, the 3rd base coach (who was not at the plate meeting) is yelling for R1 to go back to 2nd. R2, who is now at 2nd, sees runners coming at her from both directions, so she freezes on 2nd and we end up with 3 runners on 2nd base. In the meantime, F9 has played the ball into F4 who dutifully tags all three runners, and I banged two of them out.

After the inning was over, I over heard to two coaches talking and it turns out that the 1st one never told the 2nd one what was discussed in the plate conference.

For the rookies out there, care to offer an opinion on which two runners I called out?

SamC

Edited for typos

[Edited by SamNVa on May 5th, 2003 at 10:35 AM]

Sam, the 2 that didn't have a right to 2nd base :)

R1 and BR/R3.


<edit> Hmm, that may not be right. R1 for sure because of the force.

I'll guess you tagged R1 and the BR. Seems to me R2 was the only one that had rights to 2nd base. R1 should have advanced to 3rd and the BR to 1st.

I'm not a rookie, but are you sure you didn't get this play from a TV sitcom?

In what order where the runners tagged and did R1 ever touch 3B?

Are you thinking remove the force if BR/R3 is tagged first, giving R1 dibs on 2nd if R1 hasn't touched 3rd?

A:If R1 did not touch 3rd then: If anyone but R1 tagged 1st then BR and R2 out. If R1 tagged 1st then R1 out on the force and BR out.

B:If R1 touched 3rd then all forces off and R2 and BR out.

Huh? In B I assumed that when you say "touched 3rd" you mean R1 was not the 1st player tagged. If not, R2 is entitled to 2B and cannot be ruled out if in contact with the base when tagged.

The play:
"runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs, when the #4 hitter drives this towering shot ... snip ... F9 follows the flight of the ball into the wall, and makes a relatively easy catch as it comes off the wall. The 1st base coach (who was at the plate meeting) is yelling for the BR to go to 2nd, meanwhile, the 3rd base coach (who was not at the plate meeting) is yelling for R1 to go back to 2nd. R2, who is now at 2nd, sees runners coming at her from both directions, so she freezes on 2nd and we end up with 3 runners on 2nd base. In the meantime, F9 has played the ball into F4 who dutifully tags all three runners, and I banged two of them out."

OK, so BR/R3 is out regardless. R1 is out if tagged first as a force out.
If BR/R3 is tagged after 1st base, the force is not removed because the force is only BR going to 1st, R2 going to 2nd, R1 going to 3rd. I don't see how R2 can be out if R2 was forced to 2nd by the BR, beats the tag there and stays there.


[Edited by CecilOne on May 5th, 2003 at 02:39 PM]

Here's what I called
 

The order of the tags was BR, R2, and R1. R1 never maade it to 3rd; she stopped about 2 steps short and turned around and went back to 2nd, <i>(Aside: the reason all of the runners were able to make it to 2nd was because F6 was hanging out near the circle figuring she was going to act as a cutoff I presume, and F4 went a short way into right field to get the rhrow from F9 who had no arm )</i>
Anyway, I called the BR out and R1 out, figuring the the BR should have been on 1st, and R1 should have been on 3rd.

SamC

[Edited by SamNVa on May 5th, 2003 at 03:02 PM]

What are you looking for in the sequence of tags?

With the BR/R tagged first, there is no longer a force. Since R1 never touched 3B, she still owns 2B once the force is removed. Since the trailing runner was tagged, R2 may now legally retreat to 1B.

Without some amazing act by one of the runners, I don't know if it would make that much of a difference of which runner was where, it is still going to result in a runner on 2B with two outs.

I just thought it would be fun to toss around.

Right, but why is the force removed if the BR has already reached 1st? Does she have a "right" to 2nd?

1..If ball is trapped, give "safe" sign.
2..If ball is caught, signal and verbalize "OUT" or "CATCH".
3..If trapped, R1 is forced to advance. If R1 and BR are both on 1B, R1 is out when tagged.
4..If caught, R1 is out if tagged off base, safe if not.

Bob

The reason it is a force is because the immediate preceding runners have no safe haven and must leave the base to allow for the BR. If the BR/R is ruled out, then there is an unoccupied base which, if for some odd reason, is available for a runner to return.

The same reason as when you have a runner forced to vacate 1B and a runner who refuses, though forced, to advance to 3B and both end up on 2B. The defense can force the runner at 3B or tag that runner while in contact with 2B. However, if the runner coming from 1B attempts to retreat (to an occupied base) and is tagged while off the base, the preceding runner is no longer forced to go to 3B and if they attempted to do so, the runner would have to be tagged off the base to be declared out.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't think the preceding runner(s) have to vacate second base for the BR.

I don't ever remember saying that they did. I just stated that in a force situation, if a trailing runner is put out, it alleviates the force on preceding runners.

CecilOne,

Look at it this way, since R1 never touched 3rd, she never relinquished her claim to 2nd base by rule 8.3.3 (FED). Now since the BR was tagged out first, R2 could legally retreat to 1st since it is now oppen, so technically, R1 still "owns" 2nd so R2 is the runner who should be declared out.

SamC

I get what you are saying, but it seems to me that BR tagged out only matters if she has not reached 1st base and she did, so the other runners are forced to a next base (R2 to 2nd, forcing R1 to 3rd). If R1 is forced to 3rd as I believe, isn't she out if tagged anywhere else?

Not if any of the following runners have been put out prior to her being tagged if in contact with a base.

Cecil,

I can certainly see your point, after all, that's the way I called it on the field. I was just trying to explain why Mike's suggested solution could be correct as well. Either way, you end up with 2 outs and a runner on 2nd and I'm willing to bet that no one except possibly another umpire is going to know or even care which runner ends up there. ;)

SamC