Guessing Game?

whiskers_ump · #1 (**permalink**) Fri May 02, 2003, 01:12am

Watching the 5:00P.M. game prior to my 7:00 game and witnessed the following.

Outs at this point are not important, No runners on bases. Three man crew.
Left handed batter has 0-0 count. Pitch comes in, batter checks her swing, PU indicates ball.
F2 asks for an appeal, PU goes to 1stBU, who hesitates, then says, "No, she
did not go." Defensive coach asks for time, talks to PU, PU then asks 3rdBU, who
says, "Yes, she went." Naturally offensive coach joins the discussion. Several
minutes of delay, coaches depart, PU indicates 0-1, "Play"

I have never seen or thought about this before. Would you stick with your first
appeal, or do you under questioning by coach go to second partner, which of course,
was the one that should have received the request in the first place? I know our
job is to get it right, but are we allowed three chances? Or would you have gone
with 1stBU and said "No"?

glen

Mike Follett · #2 (**permalink**) Fri May 02, 2003, 05:58am

Glen,
That sounds a whole lot like a couple of umpires you and I both know..............
You weren't in my neck of the woods were you? ;-)

In answer to your question, YES, I would allow the 2nd opinion since if I was the PU, it would have been my fault for going to the "wrong" first opinion, to start with. The offensive coach would have to realize which BU was really in the correct position to see if the batter went or not.

Duke · #3 (**permalink**) Fri May 02, 2003, 09:50am

First off, it is a rare occaision that I will go for help on a check swing. If the pitch is high and inside and the catcher comes up and blocks my view then I will ask for help. Other then that I will usually tell the coach that I had the call as long as I did have it. Obviously, if you call a strike you will never ask for help.
I have been in the position at first when a lefty came up and was asked for help. I called time and talked to the plate ump about going the other way to ask for help.

kellerumps · #4 (**permalink**) Fri May 02, 2003, 11:02am

First of all, the PU screwed up and went for help in the wrong place....Then the 1st base umpire screwed up by making a call. What should have happened is the 1st base umpire hand the call off to 3rd. Since that didn't happen........it is permissable to go to the correct person.

My guess is that those 3 umpires do not work much 3 person.

First off, it is a rare occaision that I will go for help on a check swing. If the pitch is high and inside and the catcher comes up and blocks my view then I will ask for help.

I have ALWAYS been told that if the coach asks for an appeal in sportsmanlike manner then you ALWAYS go for help.

Skahtboi · #5 (**permalink**) Fri May 02, 2003, 11:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by kellerumps

First off, it is a rare occaision that I will go for help on a check swing. If the pitch is high and inside and the catcher comes up and blocks my view then I will ask for help.

I have ALWAYS been told that if the coach asks for an appeal in sportsmanlike manner then you ALWAYS go for help.

I echo the husband and wife crew. Clinics everywhere tell you to honor an appeal in just such a situation, if properly asked.

Scott

Dakota · #6 (**permalink**) Fri May 02, 2003, 11:25am

Quote:

I have ALWAYS been told that if the coach asks for an appeal in sportsmanlike manner then you ALWAYS go for help.

Maybe that depends on the sanctioning body. ASA Umpire Manual says that if the catcher asks, ask for help. Doesn't say anything about the coach asking. NFHS same. You never ask for help on a strike call, of course. Why? Because you wouldn't have called it a strike unless you were sure, right?

Duke · #7 (**permalink**) Sat May 03, 2003, 09:33am

I will go for help if I honestly do not have the call. As far as teaching umps to go for help, we have used the two ASA plate mechanics tapes at our clinics for the past few years. On them, Bill Humphrey tells you if you are going to your partner for help, then you had better give him/her some of your paycheck as it is your job behind the plate to make the call unless your were blocked out and did not have a view.

SC Ump · #8 (**permalink**) Sat May 03, 2003, 11:43am

I was watching a crew with the same type situation. The plate umpire appealled to the 1st base umpire on a left handed batter. The 1st base umpire, a woman, immediately pointed to the 3rd base guy and without hesitating said, "I don't know. Bob, did she go."

Bob said "no she didn't." The call was made properly. The plate guy shrugged and kind of laughed and the 1st base umpire looked very sharp and alert.

CecilOne · #9 (**permalink**) Sat May 03, 2003, 04:18pm

I hate comments like "if you are going to your partner for help, then you had better give him/her some of your paycheck as it is your job "

refjef40 · #10 (**permalink**) Sat May 03, 2003, 06:11pm

Thanks Cec!I like you was under the impression that we were a team and worked together.As much one man as I have done this year I sure appreciate having a partner to go to on a check swing.I think it just creates goodwill and makes us look like we want to get it right when we go to our partner.

CecilOne · #11 (**permalink**) Sat May 03, 2003, 06:37pm

Another time is when the players ask you to check with your partner (they say "appeal") on a judgement play on the bases. Yesterday, my BU partner called a close play at 2nd and because F4 fell down in the process, did not realize he was blocked from the runner's feet. They said "appeal" and he asked for my (PU) help. I said her foot beat the tag and he changed his call to safe. Of course the fielder's coach wanted to know how he could change a call and I explained about getting whatever input he wanted and my having a better angle. The coach started to say I couldn't have from behind home plate, but of course I was way out in the infield. When the third baseman nodded yes to that, the discussion was over.

oatmealqueen · #12 (**permalink**) Sat May 03, 2003, 07:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Duke
I will go for help if I honestly do not have the call. As far as teaching umps to go for help, we have used the two ASA plate mechanics tapes at our clinics for the past few years. On them, Bill Humphrey tells you if you are going to your partner for help, then you had better give him/her some of your paycheck as it is your job behind the plate to make the call unless your were blocked out and did not have a view.

I believe in getting the call right.
And if that means asking my partner, for help on a check swing, then so be it.

Del-Blue · #13 (**permalink**) Sun May 04, 2003, 06:36am

If you are working NCAA, and are asked for a checked swing appeal, YOU HAVE TO HONOR IT!!!!!
11-11 section 3a If the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball and the catcher requests help, the plate umpire MUST ask for help

IRISHMAFIA · #14 (**permalink**) Sun May 04, 2003, 08:59am

Quote:

Originally posted by Del-Blue
If you are working NCAA, and are asked for a checked swing appeal, YOU HAVE TO HONOR IT!!!!!
11-11 section 3a If the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball and the catcher requests help, the plate umpire MUST ask for help

Another ridiculous NFCA...er, I mean, NCAA rule. RH batter, runner on 3rd. I'm sure the BU has a perfect angle on that possible check-swing, but, as Bob notes, you have to go for help if asked.

One of these days the NCAA is going to have to actually start getting the umpire's input on the rule book if they want it to be a book with some integrity.

JMHO,

whiskers_ump · #15 (**permalink**) Sun May 04, 2003, 09:07pm

AFA is the same. Honor all request for check swings.
However, if out of position, go along with plate.

glen