Fed. bat hitting the ball 2X

[Rachel]

Fair bunt, batter drops the bat, bat hits ball unintentionally. In NCAA and ASA we have an out.
In Fed. what is it? The book says the act needs to be intentional 7-4-f. Do we just have a live ball? Can we tell fed. to change it so the umpires can call it consistantly?

[SC Ump]

In fed if a fair batted ball hits a bat on the ground, it is a live ball... and fair even if it rolls into foul territory afterwards.

Can we asked FED to change... ha ha ha ha. You so silly.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by SC Ump
In fed if a fair batted ball hits a bat on the ground, it is a live ball... and fair even if it rolls into foul territory afterwards.

Can we asked FED to change... ha ha ha ha. You so silly.

Just curious, why does Rule 5 Section 1 [Dead Ball]
state under art. 1 b.
Ball becomes dead immediately when: 1b. the ball is illegally batted or
comes in contact with the bat a second time.

glen

[thumpferee]

Just curious, why does Rule 5 Section 1 [Dead Ball]
state under art. 1 b.
Ball becomes dead immediately when: 1b. the ball is illegally batted or
comes in contact with the bat a second time.

glen


That applies if the batter is still in the batter's box hits the ball and the ball comes back up and hits the bat again. It also applies if the batted ball comes up and hits the batter while still in the box. Dead Ball.

[Rachel]

So FED. umpires, what do you call if the bat comes out of the hands after the bunt and hits the ball unintentionally as it is dropped? Why?

[WestMichiganBlue]

This is the way I call it.

If the bat hits the ball then the impetus on the ball is from the batter-runner. By deflecting or redirecting the path of the ball she is hindering a fielder attempting to make a play. Dead ball, batter out.

If the bat is stationary and the ball hits the bat then the bat is simply part of the playing surface. Live ball, play on.

WMB

[whiskers_ump]

I agree with WMB....Rule 5 mentions nothing about
a batter in the batter's box. State that ball is
"dead".

Bat hits ball got something....Ball hits hit, normally nothing...

glen

[CecilOne]

NFHS rule 7-4-1-k clearly say intentionally. And the case 7.4.1.F(b) says contact after laying down the bat is a live ball and that (c) drops the bat to intentionally contact the ball (fair) is a dead ball and an out. Of course, (b) says the ball hits the bat; but the implication of "intentionally" in (c) is obviously that unintentionally is not INT. There is nothing in the book about impetus of the bat or the ball, just intent or not.

Don't confuse the bat still in the batter's hands with a bat that has been dropped, although both require intent to be INT. If still in the batter's hands and in the box, accidental is a foul. If dropped, accidental is a live ball. This is also true for ASA in 7-6-J exception "no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the batter is not out and the ball is live and in play". Same for PONY (8-5) and NCAA (11-21-i-EFF-Note), except NCAA says no intent instead of no intention.

Why "In NCAA and ASA we have an out."?

[Roger Greene]

Don't have my book in the office now, but look in Rule 7 and see if you can't find a Fed rule that states that if the batter throws the bat and it interfers with a player making a play on a batted ball, the batter is out and the ball is dead.(I believe the rule also states that if the bat breaks, and a piece of the bat contacts the fair batted ball you play on.)
That rule should cover the batter releasing her bat in such a way as to contact the fair batted ball.

Roger Greene

[SamNVa]

Roger,

The rule that you are looking for is 7.3.6. The one minor point of controversy is whether "dropping" the bat is the same as "throwing" the bat. The one casebook play talks about a bat slipping from a batter's hands and interfering with F5, but I think the ruling justification applies equally well in this case also, it states: B1 is declared out because B1 is responsible for controlling her bat and not letting it intefere with a defensive player attempting to make a play.

SamC

Originally posted by CecilOne
If dropped, accidental is a live ball. This is also true for ASA in 7-6-J exception "no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, the batter is not out and the ball is live and in play". Same for PONY (8-5) and NCAA (11-21-i-EFF-Note), except NCAA says no intent instead of no intention.

Why "In NCAA and ASA we have an out."? [/B]

CecilOne,
Not sure I read your post correctly. In all three referenced orgs (ASA,PONY and NCAA), the "no intention to interfere with the course of the ball...." only applies to a dropped bat and the ball rolls against the bat in fair territory. If the batter drops the bat and hits the ball, then the batter is out and dead ball is declared.

What does this have to do with the original thread (NFHS ruling), I don't know.

[Edited by VaASAump on May 2nd, 2003 at 11:38 AM]

[CecilOne]

I understand your disagreement with my response and I was also frustrated with not finding a more specific answer.

1) There is no case or rule about bat hits ball when dropped by the batter, unless you consider all releases of the bat as thrown like 7-3-6, although the wording and the case for it clearly imply thrown as flying through the air in the direction of an infielder as opposed to a broken part of the bat doing the same. That rule is under batting infractions, which means to me undesired behavior, rather than simply dropping the bat where it will accidentally come in contact with the ball.

2) Usually, the ball is still moving when hit by the bat, so ball hitting bat or bat hitting ball is ambiguous at best, possibly synonymous. As I said: "c) drops the bat to intentionally contact the ball (fair) is a dead ball and an out. Of course, (b) says the ball hits the bat; but the implication of "intentionally" in (c) is obviously that unintentionally is not INT. There is nothing in the book about impetus of the bat or the ball, just intent or not"

3) I understood Rachel's original question to be mainly about intent ("bat hits ball unintentionally") and so my emphasis was on that and about the codes being pretty much the same.

Just to make this more fun, yesterday we had a 3X, the batter bunted, then tipped the ball a second time, then dropped the bat and it hit the ball again. Of course, only the batter and I (maybe the catcher) knew about the second hit, so there was much confusion about how the contact everyone saw could make it dead and foul.

[Roger Greene]

[1) There is no case or rule about bat hits ball when dropped by the batter, unless you consider all releases of the bat as thrown like 7-3-6, although the wording and the case for it clearly imply thrown as flying through the air in the direction of an infielder as opposed to a broken part of the bat doing the same. That rule is under batting infractions, which means to me undesired behavior, rather than simply dropping the bat where it will accidentally come in contact with the ball.

[END QUOTE]

Please Read SamC's quote from the case play (in boldface in his post above.)

I think it applies and makes enforcement consistant with other codes.

Roger Greene

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
Please Read SamC's quote from the case play (in boldface in his post above.)

I think it applies and makes enforcement consistant with other codes.

Roger Greene

I do see your point and I just think it doesn't apply because of what I said about infractions (7.3) versus normal play (7.4). I guess that is why we need official interpreters. I'll check with ours to get opinions for NFHS and ASA.

[CecilOne]

ASA POE 23-B:
"If the bat is out of the batter's hands (dropped or thrown) and it hits the ball in fair territory, the ball is dead and the batter-runner is out. If the ball hits the bat on the ground, the batter is not out."