confused or deceptive walk-steal?

TGordon · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 14, 2003, 10:05pm

Runner on third, count is 3-0 on the batter. Umpire makes a normal "strike" call on next pitch. He is surprised to watch the batter not only take off for first, but keep right on going to second. Pitcher makes a play at second and the runner from third scores. One ump has allowed the run to score and other has nullified the play and returned the runner. Since same somewhat unusual play occured w/in 2 weeks at same league the specter of coach instigation has reared its ugly head. Comments?

IRISHMAFIA · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 14, 2003, 10:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TGordon
Runner on third, count is 3-0 on the batter. Umpire makes a normal "strike" call on next pitch. He is surprised to watch the batter not only take off for first, but keep right on going to second. Pitcher makes a play at second and the runner from third scores. One ump has allowed the run to score and other has nullified the play and returned the runner. Since same somewhat unusual play occured w/in 2 weeks at same league the specter of coach instigation has reared its ugly head. Comments?

A little preventive umpiring would have the PU killing the ball and bringing the batter back to the box.

However, miss that opportunity and a ruling will be necessary. Score the run and bring the batter back. Of course, by now there may be a 3-2 count

Rick Vietti · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 09:00am

That same type of play occurred around here in a high school game. My response was similar to Mike's, kill the play but the local UIC pointed out that the ball is live and the defense should also know what the count is and that the ball is live and in play.

Now that being said, if this happened more than once a game or a certain team is identified as (pulling this type of play), then I certainly would do some preventitive officiating by putting the coach on notice that this will be interference and an out on a subsequent occurance.

CecilOne · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 11:47am

OK, how about looking at it this way?
I would have an opinion (an umpire judgement) on whether the batter was being dumb or deceitful. Assuming dumb, run scores and the batter returns to bat. Shame on defense. Assuming deceitful, run scores, batter DQ for USC. Most likely, I would assume dumb and not DQ the batter. However, if I smelled deceit by coach, batter out for interference (really stretching NFHS 7-3-5) or "abandoning" (really stretching 10-2-3-g).

IRISHMAFIA · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
OK, how about looking at it this way?
I would have an opinion (an umpire judgement) on whether the batter was being dumb or deceitful. Assuming dumb, run scores and the batter returns to bat. Shame on defense. Assuming deceitful, run scores, batter DQ for USC. Most likely, I would assume dumb and not DQ the batter. However, if I smelled deceit by coach, batter out for interference (really stretching NFHS 7-3-5) or "abandoning" (really stretching 10-2-3-g).

Speaking ASA

If you have that type of coach, one of two things will happen if you kill play and tell the batter to return:

1. The coach will come out and argue the point at which you can remind him that the batter in not allowed to leave the box or you start calling strikes, or

2. The coach will understand you know what is going on and will drop it from that day's game plan.

Either way, you've made life easier for all concerned except that one coach

CecilOne · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 12:15pm

About "batter in not allowed to leave the box or you start calling strikes " - the batter can leave the box if the pitcher is not in position, but the strikes can be called for "failing to promptly take her position". Talk about nit-picking!

IRISHMAFIA · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
About "batter in not allowed to leave the box or you start calling strikes " - the batter can leave the box if the pitcher is not in position, but the strikes can be called for "failing to promptly take her position". Talk about nit-picking!

Oh, absolutely! Actually, it only requires the pitcher to be in the circle with the ball and the catcher to be in the box. It also goes on to say that if the batter leaves on what they believed to be a ball four call, then no penalty should be assessed.

Didn't say I would do something like that, but I have heard umpires make this threat, along with USC for player and coach. I even heard one guy as a player in another area, threaten to forfeit the game when a runner took off to first with only a 3-ball count. Told the coach he was making a travesty of the game. I got my tail away from that area QUICK!

I would never allow the batter to get halfway to 1B.

[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 15th, 2003 at 12:32 PM]

CecilOne · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 12:47pm

Of course. Most of us would yell " S T R R I I I K E !" as loud as possible when we saw the batter running.

DownTownTonyBrown · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 01:41pm

I was looking at another web-site this morning and found nearly this exact "TRICK" play. It is not an authoritative web-site but the ball is live and the catcher, as well as the rest of the defense, needs to be aware of what is going on too.

Coach Nick Dixon's Trick Plays

You will find a couple of other trick plays here but CHECK THIS OUT.... about 2/3 of the way down the web-page under "FAKE WALK" - a distraction play

http://www.hit2win.com/trickplay.html

WHAT IF THE BATTER IS DEAF? This very play could happen without any intent to deceive.

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 10:16am

At 14U or above, once I loudly repeat the SSSTTTTTRRREEEEEIIIIKKKKEEEEE call, I will assume the act of the alleged BR and her 1B coach to be intentional interference. BR out. Team warning.

At 12U and under, if the runner keeps going, I'll kill the play and return the alleged BR to the batter's box and other runners to their bases. If the coach objects, I'll ask which he prefers - killed play & runners return or interference?

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 10:18am

Quote:

WHAT IF THE BATTER IS DEAF? This very play could happen without any intent to deceive.

Is her 1B coach deaf also?

Dakota · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 10:27am

Quote:

"FAKE WALK" - a distraction play

This play, linked to above, is different, and probably legal in ASA. The batter is merely stepping out of the box and asking for confirmation that it was ball 4. R1 is on 1B and is hoping for a chance to steal with a catcher distracted by the batter's question.

It's not the same as a batter continuing to run, not just to 1B, but on to 2B over the loud call re-announcement by the umpire, and with no attempt by the 1B coach to send her back.