obstruction w/'pickle'

TGordon · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 14, 2003, 09:58pm

Runner is caught in a 'pickle'between 3rd and home and is obstructed on way back to third. However, a following runner has caught up and is standing on third base. What result if runner is tagged out vs. her making it back safely. Have been informed that in former the runner is sent back to 2nd but in the latter the second runner is in jeopardy of being called out if fielder is wise enough to tag her. Do you agree? The differing results do not seem right?

IRISHMAFIA · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 14, 2003, 10:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TGordon
Runner is caught in a 'pickle'between 3rd and home and is obstructed on way back to third. However, a following runner has caught up and is standing on third base. What result if runner is tagged out vs. her making it back safely. Have been informed that in former the runner is sent back to 2nd but in the latter the second runner is in jeopardy of being called out if fielder is wise enough to tag her. Do you agree? The differing results do not seem right?

Speaking ASA

If trailing, non-obstructed runner is tagged first, that runner is out.

If obstructed runner is tagged first, the play is dead, the umpire places the obstructed runner on the base they believe would have been attained had obstruction not occurred. In this case, I believe the trailing runner would be returned to 2B.

Andy · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 11:43am

Quote:

Originally posted by TGordon
Do you agree? The differing results do not seem right?

I agree with Mike's answer above.

As to whether I agree with the ruling and differing results, sure I do.

In your scenario, the runner from second was not obstructed, so she has no special protection. If she decides to go stand on third base before seeing the outcome of the pickle, she does so at her own risk. If her teammate is able to get back to third base safely, even though she was obstructed, the ball is still live and the trailing runner is still subject to being put out.

It seems to me that the trailer should have waited between second and third for the outcome of the pickle.

CecilOne · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 11:57am

Agreed, there is no indication the trailing runner from 2nd was affected by the obstruction.

Mike,
In your comment:
"If obstructed runner is tagged first, the play is dead, the umpire places the obstructed runner on the base they believe would have been attained had obstruction not occurred. In this case, I believe the trailing runner would be returned to 2B";
why is the play dead rather than delayed dead, as the trailing runner is still not safe?
Isn't the rule that when two runners are on the same base, the lead runner "owns" it and the trailing runner has no right to it unless forced (not mentioned in this play)?

IRISHMAFIA · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
Agreed, there is no indication the trailing runner from 2nd was affected by the obstruction.

Mike,
In your comment:
"If obstructed runner is tagged first, the play is dead, the umpire places the obstructed runner on the base they believe would have been attained had obstruction not occurred. In this case, I believe the trailing runner would be returned to 2B";
why is the play dead rather than delayed dead, as the trailing runner is still not safe?
Isn't the rule that when two runners are on the same base, the lead runner "owns" it and the trailing runner has no right to it unless forced (not mentioned in this play)?

100% correct. I kicked that one. If the obstructed runner is in contact with the base at the time of the tag, the ball remains live and the trailing runner will be ruled out if tagged while not in contact with 2B or for that matter, 1B if available.

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 12:56pm

In that situation, if the lead runner saw the following runner's predicament and could think fast enough, he would be sure to be out going back to 3B so that the play would be killed and everyone safe (with lead then safe at 3B and following sent back to 2B).

Conversely, a quick-thinking defense would let the lead runner get back to 3B so that they could tag the following runner.

Somehow, I doubt that I'll see this one in my lifetime, but you never know.

DownTownTonyBrown · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 01:18pm

I realize that everyone here may not be working baseball as well as softball. But if you are working baseball recognize the rule difference here.

FED baseball rules hose this up. It is still delayed deadball. However, in baseball the runner is awarded at least one base past the point of obstruction and past his point of advancement on the bases (home in this case).

Rule 8-3-2 is long but includes this statement, "The obstructed runner is awarded a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred."

Casebook play 8.3.2 Situation A is the exact situation as described originally above...And this includes the playing action of tagging R2 with the ball as both R1 and R2 stand on 3rd! RULING: Umpire shall signal a delayed deadball when the infraction by F5 (the obstruction in returning to 3rd) occurs. At the conclusion of playing action, he declares the ball dead, then awards home to R1 (the obstructed runner between 3rd and home) and allows R2 to remain at third.

Baserunnining errors REWARDED!

CecilOne · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
In that situation, if the lead runner saw the following runner's predicament and could think fast enough, he would be sure to be out going back to 3B so that the play would be killed and everyone safe (with lead then safe at 3B and following sent back to 2B).

I agree with "If the obstructed runner is in contact with the base at the time of the tag, the ball remains live and the trailing runner will be ruled out if tagged ". Regardless of whether the lead runner is tagged, the obstruction still places her at 3rd and the trail runner is still out, not at 2nd.
I was thinking more of the lead runner seeing the problem and heading for home plate again in hopes of making it or another obstruction which would mean both safe, or worst case one out and one on 3rd (same as if lead runner stays at 3rd). Now I have to figure out if a subsequent obstruction takes precedence over a previous one.

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Conversely, a quick-thinking defense would let the lead runner get back to 3B so that they could tag the following runner.

Don't see the benefit to the defense, stiil one out, runner at 3rd. Their question might be whether to tag the faster runner for defensive advantage or try to guess which one would make another running mistake.

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Somehow, I doubt that I'll see this one in my lifetime, but you never know.

Not until tomorrow.

greymule · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 15, 2003, 02:31pm

CecilOne said: "Regardless of whether the lead runner is tagged, the obstruction still places her at 3rd and the trail runner is still out, not at 2nd."

If the lead runner is obstructed and then put out, the play is immediately dead and the lead runner is placed on 3B. How does that make the following runner out?

CecilOne · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 08:53am

I couldn't figure out how the lead runner was put out after being obstructed. If the lead runner is placed on 3rd and the following runner is still there, the lead runner has the right to the base (still assuming no force) and the following runner has the liability.
With a force (i.e., following runner advancing from 3rd because of loaded bases), the following runner would take precedence. In that case "not out between the bases where obstruction occurred" kicks in, so the lead runner would have to be awarded home.

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 10:07am

You guys are confusing me... there seems to be a mix of R1 makes it back to base and R1 tagged out before making it back in the replies and responses... Or, maybe I'm just easily confused - or both

The original question was

Quote:

What result if runner is tagged out vs. her making it back safely.

Speaking ASA.

CASE 1: R1 is tagged out in the pickle. The obstructed runner cannot be put out between the bases where the obstruction occurred. If she is tagged out, the play is immediately dead. She is placed on the base she would have received & other runners placed accordingly. In this case, R1 on 3B and R2 on 2B.

CASE 2: R1 makes it back to the base without being tagged. R1 still has "rights" to the base and has arrived safely. R2 is in jeopardy and must attempt to return to 2B or be tagged out. If R1 is tagged first, that is nothing more than tagging a runner standing on a base to which she is entitled. In other words, nothing. Ball still live; R2 still in jeopardy. If R2 is tagged before she makes it back to 2B, she is out.

CecilOne · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 12:11pm

I have been going by "is obstructed on way back to third". The "if runner is tagged out vs. her making it back safely" is not material when she "is obstructed" because a tag after the obstruction would have no effect.

If the lead runner is out, i.e., only if no obstruction, that's a different question than the obstruction we (or at least I) have been discussing. Then the following runner can be safe at 3rd, but not returned to 2nd.

In the given case of "is obstructed", I don't see the following runner as "affected by the obstruction". If the lead runner is safe at 3rd, the following runner is out if tagged before returning to 2nd. This is regardless of whether the lead runner is safe because of obstruction or because of just running.
As far as I can tell; Mike, Andy and I think the following runner is out (still assuming no force). Does anyone else think so?

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 12:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
I have been going by "is obstructed on way back to third". The "if runner is tagged out vs. her making it back safely" is not material when she "is obstructed" because a tag after the obstruction would have no effect.

If the lead runner is out, i.e., only if no obstruction, that's a different question than the obstruction we (or at least I) have been discussing. Then the following runner can be safe at 3rd, but not returned to 2nd.

In the given case of "is obstructed", I don't see the following runner as "affected by the obstruction". If the lead runner is safe at 3rd, the following runner is out if tagged before returning to 2nd. This is regardless of whether the lead runner is safe because of obstruction or because of just running.
As far as I can tell; Mike, Andy and I think the following runner is out (still assuming no force). Does anyone else think so?

Speaking ASA

It is very material. If the obstructed runner is off the base and tagged out, the play becomes dead instantaneously and all subsequent action becomes irrelevant. That means that the defense cannot tag the trailing runner out if they first tagged the obstructed runner off the base.

Andy · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 12:38pm

This was what I was trying to say originally. If we have an obstruction call and the runner that was obstructed is tagged, the ball becomes dead immediately and we award bases. If the base awarded in this scenario is third, I can see no other choice but to place the trailing runner back on second. The ball is dead, so she cannot be put out.

If the obstructed runner makes it back to third without being tagged, the obstruction is "off" and the ball is still live. This means that the trailing runner needs to get back to second on her own at risk of being tagged out.

Whether or not the trailing runner can be put out depends on what happens with the obstructed runner.

Dakota · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 16, 2003, 01:02pm

Quote:

The "if runner is tagged out vs. her making it back safely" is not material when she "is obstructed" because a tag after the obstruction would have no effect.

If the lead runner is out, i.e., only if no obstruction, that's a different question than the obstruction we (or at least I) have been discussing.

Cecil,
I don't understand where you are on this. I agree (as I said) with Mike and Andy - if the obstructed runner is tagged off the base, the ball is dead immediately. The trailing runner cannot be tagged out because the ball is dead. So I disagree with the portion of your quote in blue (it is material and the effect is to kill the play), and I don't understand the portion of your quote in red - how did the obstruction disappear when the lead runner was tagged out?