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-   -   help on ASA test #45 (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/8230-help-asa-test-45-a.html)

shipwreck Sun Apr 13, 2003 05:11pm

Please help me on #45. R1 is on 1B with no outs, unreported substitute B2 is at bat with a one ball and a one strike count B2 grounds into a force out at 2B retiring R1. Before the next pitch, the defensive team notifies the unpire that B2 is unreported. The umpire should rule:
a: R1 is out. B2 is out, removed from 1B and is disqualified.
b: R1 is returned to 1B. B2 is removed from 1B and disqualified.
c: R1 is returned to 1B and a substitute enters to bat for B2.
d: R1 is out and a legal substitute replaces B2 at 1B

It seems to me they are all incorrect.
a:B2 would not be out so incorrect answer.
b:R1 was out on the play and the rules states that all outs that occur on this play will stand, so incorrect.
c:same for this question, R1 was out on this play, so incorrect.
d:rule states that all runners(including batter)will return to the base occupied on the batted ball(she was batting) so cannot be replaced at 1B, so incorrect.
PLEASE shed some light on this question? Thanks, Dave

greymule Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:33am

The correct answer is a.

R1's out on the play stands. Because the appeal was made before the next pitch, B2 is also out. Further, because B2 was an unreported sub, he is disqualified.

If a pitch was thrown and then the defense appealed B2, he would be disqualified, but he would not be out. A substitute would run for him.

If the offense notified the umpire of the substitution before the defense appealed, B2's entry would have become legal.

See sections 4-6 and 4-7.

shipwreck Mon Apr 14, 2003 06:37am

Then why does the rule say all runners(including batter) will return to the base occupied on the play. Dave

Del-Blue Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:03am

Dave,

It also goes on to say in the exception........All outs that occur on this play will stand.

greymule Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:06am

I think you may be right, Shipwreck. I had a problem with question #45, too, and at our rules meeting brought up the fact that an unreported substitute is not necessarily an <i>illegal player.</i> In fact, 4-6-B-2 clearly implies that the unreported substitute might not be an illegal player. In the hurried atmosphere of the meeting, I accepted the explanation they gave me. But apparently, only if the unreported substitute was an illegal player would he be called out.

Unless some other poster can explain why "a" is indeed correct, I think ASA wrongly equated "unreported substitute" with "illegal player" and produced yet another faulty question.

shipwreck Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:50am

Del-Blue, in the case they sited in the question, it states the the unreported sub grounds into a force out at 2B retiring R1. The unreported sub never was called out, so that part of the rule has no bearing on the answer. Dave

IRISHMAFIA Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by shipwreck
Del-Blue, in the case they sited in the question, it states the the unreported sub grounds into a force out at 2B retiring R1. The unreported sub never was called out, so that part of the rule has no bearing on the answer. Dave
Dave,

All Bob did was respond to your belief that all runners are returned to the previous base. Any put out, remain out as Bob noted.

As far as the rest of the question goes, I think those posing the question on the test did mistakenly mixed "unreported sub" with "illegal player". The rule the answer sheet cites is the "illegal player" rule, but the casebook cite is that of the "unreported sub" rule.

I believe the answer should be the last half of C and the first half of D.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 14th, 2003 at 01:37 PM]

greymule Mon Apr 14, 2003 01:20pm

Shipwreck, you are absolutely right. The correct answer should have been "e: none of the above." I should have pursued the matter at the rules meeting, and thank you for bringing this up.

ASA case play 4.6-7 <i>is</i> question #45:

R1 is on 1B with no outs, unreported substitute B2 is at bat with a 1-ball, 1-strike count. B2 grounds into a force out at 2B retiring R1. Before the next pitch, the defensive team notifies the umpire that B2 is unreported.

Ruling: R1's out remains. B2 is removed from 1B and disqualified. <b>A legal substitute assumes the batting position and assumes a count of 1-ball, 1-strike.</b> (4-6B)

(Note: This is verbatim from the case book; thus the various grammar/punctuation errors.)

Once again, ASA has failed to proofread their test.

shipwreck Mon Apr 14, 2003 03:29pm

greymule, thanks a bunch for looking that up. I read the question about 10 times thinking maybe I had missed something. For a while I thought I was losing my marbles or something. Dave

rmiszta Mon Apr 14, 2003 09:18pm

Does anyone have the official answer key to this test so we can check our answers to what the pros believe are the correct ones?
My email is [email protected] If you cannot email the answer sheet, let me know and I can send you my fax number.
Thanks. (I agree ASA always has a question here and there where there is no right answer!)

IRISHMAFIA Mon Apr 14, 2003 09:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rmiszta
Does anyone have the official answer key to this test so we can check our answers to what the pros believe are the correct ones?
My email is [email protected] If you cannot email the answer sheet, let me know and I can send you my fax number.
Thanks. (I agree ASA always has a question here and there where there is no right answer!)

Yes, I do have the answer sheet and no, I will not send it to you or anyone else. Every UIC has at least one.

When I offer an answer to a test question, I offer exactly what the sheet states.


rmiszta Tue Apr 15, 2003 07:49am

Where I am, we do not turn in our tests or have any closed book testing. The administrator simply reads off the answers during a long drawn out meeting where the first year officials ask many questions.
I cannot attend the above this year do to NFHS games. That was why I was looking for an answer key to check my answers.
With that being said, thanks for your help Mike. Just as any UIC, always there to help out, when it is convenient. I apologize, I thought this board was to assist everyone.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by rmiszta
Where I am, we do not turn in our tests or have any closed book testing. The administrator simply reads off the answers during a long drawn out meeting where the first year officials ask many questions.
I cannot attend the above this year do to NFHS games. That was why I was looking for an answer key to check my answers.
With that being said, thanks for your help Mike. Just as any UIC, always there to help out, when it is convenient. I apologize, I thought this board was to assist everyone.

There is a big difference between "assist" and give out test answers. I'm sure if National Staff wanted that, they would just publish them with the test. Of course, I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with working NFHS games.

I don't know who you are, where you are or for whom you work. As far as I know, you are just looking for an easy way out. And yes, that does happen.

If Del-Blue ever gets a chance to get off the field this spring, I believe he will attest that I do not give out answers until I know people have made an effort to do the test. I assume he will also attest that once I see that effort, I am not overly stingy with them. But those are umpires for which I am responsible. To the best of my knowledge, you are not one of them. If you were, I would be more than happy to help you out.

I don't understand that if you couldn't make the meeting to which you are referring, why your UIC wouldn't provide the answers for you.

BTW, if you feel any differently, I wouldn't send them to anyone on the list, not just you.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 15th, 2003 at 11:59 AM]

CecilOne Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:08pm

It's hard to believe that anyone would expect anyone to give out an answer sheet for any test.

greymule Tue Apr 15, 2003 01:40pm

Each year, the answers to about 90 of the 100 questions on the ASA test are obvious, and whatever difficulties lie in most of the rest stem from poor wording. Some involve levels that I never do, so I don't know how many 75-year-olds can be in the infield in Super Senior Co-ed Class B Slow Pitch or what ball is standard in Boys' JO Modified. Typically, there are only two or three questions on which I'd want to check my answer.

And each year, a few questions/answers are either wrong (#45 this year), or badly worded (the one about the white/orange base and the throw from foul territory), or designed for mind-readers (#94 this year), or carelessly transcribed and thus ambiguous (coach asks for time <i>to discuss</i> rather than <i>and discusses</i> strategy).

However, the test is good review and certainly productive to go over. I've learned more from ASA's erroneous questions than from their valid ones.


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