Would you have done this?

[WestMichiganBlue]

FED Varsity, no outs, R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, new batter. R1 is stealing on the pitch. Pitch is low, batter swings and misses (I think). F2 is unable to catch ball, R2 goes into 2B standing up. I look at partner; his hands are not in the air. The ball is returned to F1, batter steps back in, pitcher gets ready - but I am still thinking about the last pitch.

I call time and confer with partner: "Did you have any inclination that ball was tipped? Was that a foul?" He said that he wasn't sure, but he thought it was. Neither of us were sure, but two separate opinions reinforced the thought that it had been tipped.

I announced "foul ball, the ball is dead," pointed at R2 and said "runner must return." Runner returned, coach didn't say a word, and the game went on. Later that night I reviewed that particular play and wondered if I had acted correctly. I identified three umpiring options here: which one would you choose?

1) Our obligation is to get the play right, regardles of what it takes.
2) If time has elapsed and no one has questioned your call, do you possibly open up a "can of worms" by reversing your call?
3) Do you make a call that takes away the player's accomplishment on the play if you are not positive?

WMB

[CecilOne]

I agree that asking your partner for help was the right thing to do and "get the play right, regardles of what it takes" is the best premise.
Now I will go out on the edge. The theory of never guessing a strike or an out can be applied to this, if you see that as favoring the offense when there is doubt. If so, that would mean letting the play stand as the foul is worse for the batter and runner than the clean strike.

[SWFLguy]

I'd have let the play stand----
if the defensive team coach called time
and asked--- then you could have acted
as you did.
Just my 2¢ worth.

[oatmealqueen]

If neither one of you was absolutly sure, I'd have let the play stand. Never guess that something happened; see it, call it, don't know; let it go. JMHO

[Del-Blue]

I would have to side with Queen Bee here. If you are not sure, let it stand. Don't guess a strike or out.

[woolnojg]

West-
Judging from your posts, you have some experience.
You made the initial no call for some reason. then you second guessed yourself and checked with your partner. He had done the same thing, a no call. Followed by a guess.
My experience shows me that officials make a call based on all kinds of info that they process without alway being aware of the details. You make your call/no call based on this. At that point, I have to have definite evidence that it was a wrong call to change my call. In this case you had 2 maybes, not strong enough evidence to change, in my view.

[WestMichiganBlue]

I said "Pitch is low, batter swings and misses (I think). F2 is unable to catch ball, R2 goes into 2B standing up. I look at partner; his hands are not in the air."

The ball went under the bat and bounced off the catcher's glove. I sensed, but did not see it deflect. I looked for my partner, but he did not signal nor call dead ball. But I suspect that he was focusing on the impending play. Runner at 3B, runner stealing, is the throw going to 2B? or 3B? or F6? Where do I move to? What's the best angle? Etc. Etc. Etc. As a result I think that he just froze on the support call.

Remember that, when asked, partner thought that it was foul. Had he said not, the play would had stood as called. But two separate opinions that it might have been foul, to me was enough to say it was foul.

Remember that we had two offensive coaches at right angles to the play, both in better position than BU or PU to see the deflection. Not a peep from either one when I changed the call - and they lost a stolen base.

BTW - we were not guessing a strike or out. We already had a strike. The only question was whether it was a swinging strike (ball in play) or foul ball (dead ball, no advance).

However, it was not my position to defend myself here, just to make it clear what we saw or did. I put the question up to gain opinions on how others would handle this situation. This question was posted on two boards. I am somewhat disappointed that all responders but one (and he hedged his bet), were on the side of "shut up and let the play stand, unless challenged" vs getting the play right. Maybe I am too idealistic, but I will probably do the same thing again.

WMB

[refjef40]

I don't think you need to defend yourself blue we all make judgements like yhat every game.I just don't believe the responders didn't want the play right they just wouldn't change the play unless they were positive they were wrong.I agree with them but it sounds like you feel it came out right and everybody is happy.

[oatmealqueen]

WMB,
I was not trying to attack you, but several things that you said made me question your decision.
A long time ago I took "I thought" and "It looked like" out of my vocabulary when it came to making calls. If I am not sure of something I cannot call it.
I believe that you had honorable intentions about the call that you made, and wanted to get it right. We all want that.

[CecilOne]

I guess it was me that you thought was "hedging his bet" (Apr 2nd, 2003 07:58 AM ). Yes, because I presented two theories, tried to be too subtle and left it open-ended to see if the expected controversy would develop. Congrats to all who took the high road and said let the call stand.

[WestMichiganBlue]

How come you're bailing out on me? Three days ago you said "I agree that asking your partner for help was the right thing to do and "get the play right, regardles of what it takes" is the best premise."

Now its "Congrats to all who took the high road and said let the call stand."

Help! I'm all alone now (VBG).

WMB

[ronald]

WMB,

It appears that you guessed and got the call correct based on the offensive coaches not saying a peep. But when the play happened, did the defensive coach jump up and say the batter tipped the ball? Normally those coaches have a good angle too? However, to what degree did the coaches take your act of asking for help and decision as a well no use asking about it. Were the coaches ones who would ask for an explanation?

Now let's assume they did. Are you going to say to the offensive coach that I confered with my partner and we think or have a sense that the ball was tipped by the bat? For me in your situation to say "in my judgement, the ball was tipped" would be deceitful and a lie. This is not a situation where my thoughts should be guiding my decisions even if they lead to a good one. That fits into the see what you call principle and do not call what you did not see.

If it was the other way around, what tape would be running through your mind? The possibility that you think you are right turns out wrong is just as great as the way it turned out in this situation.

In addition, I understand that in getting the call right there is an aspect of somebody saw what happened clearly and has no doubt of it that the other person missed. That did not happen in your situation.

I actually had the opposite of what you had but I saw it. I had a scrimmage game where the batter tipped a ball and I immediately called dead ball and threw my arms up. A few seconds go by and I'm getting ready for the next pitch and the head coach comes down the line at least 3/4 of the way and says hey blue that was a ball, the catcher missed it. There was no attempt to question the call, she was telling me that it was a ball. Not only that, but she said it with the conviction that she was 100 percent sure and that I was off my rocker (all that). It caught me so off guard that I did not tell her that she can't just walk down the line without asking for time. I told her as forcefully as possible that I signaled dead ball immediately (I was thinking mentally who the f*** is this?). She was a a### with her attitude and has been confirmed in a subsequent game. She actually thinks she knows how to call the game better than the officials. She has no sense of how to approach the officials to discuss a play. (so much for ranting).

[Edited by ronald on Apr 6th, 2003 at 12:55 AM]

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
How come you're bailing out on me? Three days ago you said "I agree that asking your partner for help was the right thing to do and "get the play right, regardles of what it takes" is the best premise."

Now its "Congrats to all who took the high road and said let the call stand."

Help! I'm all alone now (VBG).

WMB

WMB
You are not alone, but you ask for our comments.
I ask my partners plenty of times to aid in getting the call right, but if they say "I think", or "I'm not sure", or "I'm pretty sure", then neither of us KNOWS or has really SEEN it.
I'm one of those types that believe that the game and it's participants are important above all else.
Getting the play right is the most important thing, but only if you have absolute knowledge that it is the right call.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
How come you're bailing out on me? Three days ago you said "I agree that asking your partner for help was the right thing to do and "get the play right, regardles of what it takes" is the best premise."

Now its "Congrats to all who took the high road and said let the call stand."

Help! I'm all alone now (VBG).WMB

Sorry about "bailing out". We learn as we go. My first response gave two premises but, as you said, did not directly answer the question of what to do. I did say "never guessing a strike or an out can be applied to this". The next four responses after mine clarified the subject. I hope we all believe in using input from partners in getting the play right. But the others are right in saying as long as one of us actually saw something. And as the oq said "off with their heads", no er ... "You are not alone". Back to your original question, what would you do the next time?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

WMB, I think Woolen Noggin makes a very good point.

Originally posted by woolnojg
West-
Judging from your posts, you have some experience.
You made the initial no call for some reason. then you second guessed yourself and checked with your partner. He had done the same thing, a no call. Followed by a guess.
My experience shows me that officials make a call based on all kinds of info that they process without alway being aware of the details. You make your call/no call based on this. At that point, I have to have definite evidence that it was a wrong call to change my call. In this case you had 2 maybes, not strong enough evidence to change, in my view.

There is a sense of the game that I believe, of which we are not fully aware. Instinctively we know the count but we check our idiotclicker. Instinctively we sense the ball was hit but we might second guess and then become uncertain. Instinctively we saw a good tag-out but upon replay we question the accuracy of our judgement, possibly justify that a tag was late or not made and then say it's too late for an out call - must be safe. We create some of our own problems.

I ask my partners in the field to be ABSOLUTELY certain before they call a foul ball (as in it hit the batter). I don't believe I would ever ask my partner about a foul ball that escaped and got behind the catcher. I would positively know, if not instinctively know, whether there was contact with the bat or not.

If the pitch was poorly thrown (such that the catcher had difficulty making the catch) and the batter did what he/she was supposed to do (swing and not make contact), then I would let the play stand (runner advance). When I don't rely upon my instincts and I make a call that doesn't fit the situation, is when I create problems for myself.

In my opinion, if no one else on the field wants the call... then don't make it to please yourself... or even to get it right. As soon as you do something that no one else is asking for, or sees as a needed call, then you are standing out and are liable to catch some strong, negative reinforcement. Changing a no-call to a send-them-back call generally catches some flak also.

In your case, you may have unknowingly received that glance from the coach that he thought this was a foul ball. And the coach may have been just waiting for you to make your decision. And you may have made the correct decision... instinctively. The timid confirmation from your partner may have been just enough reinforcement for you to rely upon your instincts.

I'm thinking that you probably did it right but that you possibly could have let the play stand and not gotten criticized either. Sounds like everyone was content except for you being a little uncertain. Keep going.