A couple situations... - Page 2

robbiep · #16 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 10:10am

OK!
I hope you are all able to look the coach in the eye and explain your call..Oh, I forgot it was a JV game! -RP

Elaine "Lady Blue" · #17 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 10:54am

I think what Robbie is saying is that maybe the SS was thinking she could tag R1 going from 2nd to 3rd OR throw to 1st and that's where the dancing came in. The SS may think it was 1 out and she was holding R1. HTBT, so I don't necessarily agree with the interference call.

BUT----I have to agree with Mike, the coach should not have touched the batter/runner. This is not 10U Rec ball, dead ball, batter/runner out for assistance game over, head for the parking lot.

Dakota · #18 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by robbiep
OK!
I hope you are all able to look the coach in the eye and explain your call

No problem. I do agree with the HTBT on these kinds of plays. You can never give as complete a description of all that was apparently going on with a written description.

I hadn't thought of the situation where F6 might be trying to make a play on R1 instead of BR. That may effect the call, but even so, F6 has a right to field the ball without worrying about a charging R1.

If she fumbled the ball trying to control & tag at the same time, then I've got nothing. OTOH, if she muffed the ball while dancing to avoid R1, then I have interference.

Quote:

Oh, I forgot it was a JV game! -RP

In other words, 16-17 year olds. I know JV is bottom of the barrel for you Fed types, but 16-17 is pretty high up the ladder in JO summer ball. I expect them to know and play by the rules by then. No allowances for "oops" plays like you might allow at 10U / 12U rec.

Dakota · #19 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 11:22am

Quote:

Originally posted by Elaine "Lady Blue"
I think what Robbie is saying is that maybe the SS was thinking she could tag R1 going from 2nd to 3rd OR throw to 1st and that's where the dancing came in. The SS may think it was 1 out and she was holding R1. HTBT, so I don't necessarily agree with the interference call.

See my answer above...

Quote:

BUT----I have to agree with Mike, the coach should not have touched the batter/runner. This is not 10U Rec ball, dead ball, batter/runner out for assistance game over, head for the parking lot.

The rule, again, is prohibiting assisting the runner, not touching the runner. 2002 Case Play 8.8-19 rules a runner out for being tapped on the leg, "in an effort to tell him to advance." IMO, the critical element is the effort to assist, not the tap. If it is clear the touch is celebratory or otherwise non-assisting, then I have no call. The doubt, though, goes to enforcing the rule (i.e. calling the out for assisting).

belcantor · #20 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 03:04pm

I'm a newbie here but have been officiating ASA JO Fastpitch for several years. I have to agree with Mike Rowe on both the interference call and the coach assisting the runner as she rounded first. A pat on the back as the runner rounds first could easily be interpreted as a non-verbal signal to proceed to second in case the runner hadn't heard the coach's voice telling her to continue. Not a pat-on-the-back for a job well done, but illegal assistance to the runner.

WestMichiganBlue · #21 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 03:15pm

How could you disparage out JV teams! I'm going to sic my granddaughter on you!

In other words, 16-17 year olds. I know JV is bottom of the barrel for you Fed types, but 16-17 is pretty high up the ladder in JO summer ball.

Actually Freshman ball is usually the bottom. Any high quality freshmen are probably going to move up to JV or even varsity, leaving a poorer team behind. Really, though, it depends on the program. I called a freshman tournament last spring and the play was excellent. And I've called JV games where either team would easily defeat many varsity teams. My granddaughter, a sophomore JV player, is probably good enough to play for many area school varsity teams. But she is behind a Senior returning All-Conference player. So rather than bench time on the varsity, she is getting lots of game experience at the JV level.

No one should ever compare H.S. ball with summer JO teams. A H.S. team may have one or two outstanding players, a few good ones, and the rest fill out the squad. A JO team is going to recruit the top players from several high schools. A better comparison would occur if we had an All-Conference JV team - which I would take on, and could probably defeat most 16U JO teams.

WMB

IRISHMAFIA · #22 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 28, 2003, 05:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
The rule, again, is prohibiting assisting the runner, not touching the runner. 2002 Case Play 8.8-19 rules a runner out for being tapped on the leg, "in an effort to tell him to advance." IMO, the critical element is the effort to assist, not the tap. If it is clear the touch is celebratory or otherwise non-assisting, then I have no call. The doubt, though, goes to enforcing the rule (i.e. calling the out for assisting).

Answer me this. If the tap was at third base, would you make the call? If the winning run is on 3B and on a fly ball to the OF with less than 2 outs, the coach moves next to the runner and taps them on the back or shoulder? Was it a congratulatory pat for winning the game or was it an indication to leave as the ball has been touched by a defensive player? How do you differentiate one from the other? Where do you draw the line between the possibilities?

BTW, how far is that coach's box from the base? How long is that coach's arm? I'm not looking for a cheap out, I'm just trying to control the game using the rules available.

Dakota · #23 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 29, 2003, 01:31am

Mike,
I did concede that any doubt on the intent / purpose / effect of the touch would go to calling the out.

But how about this one: R1 on 2B, B2 hits long into the outfield. R1 has a full head of steam rounding 3B toward home. 3B coach holds her hand out and she and R1 exchange a "low 5" as she runs by.

That's a touch. Is it an out? I say no.

IRISHMAFIA · #24 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 29, 2003, 09:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Mike,
I did concede that any doubt on the intent / purpose / effect of the touch would go to calling the out.

But how about this one: R1 on 2B, B2 hits long into the outfield. R1 has a full head of steam rounding 3B toward home. 3B coach holds her hand out and she and R1 exchange a "low 5" as she runs by.

That's a touch. Is it an out? I say no.

If I can ascertain that the player hit the coach's hand, I have nothing.

However, if the coach initiates contact while the ball is still within the confines of the field and the defense may make the catch and, in my judgment, the coach's effort is to stop or get the attention of the runner, then I may have an out there. Especially if the coach is not in the coach's box.

The coaches know, or at least should know, they shouldn't be anywhere near an active runner during a live ball. The benefit is going to the defense.