We've been discussing several plays that I thought I finally had straight but, after attending the New Jersey UIC meeting today, I can see that I was wrong.

First, I tried to get some clarification on question #94 (batter throws bat and is called out). As soon as I mentioned the test, they said, "Question 94, right? We have something on that and will e-mail it to you." So I'll post whatever they send me.

We have been having a related discussion about whether a player can be ejected <i>and</i> called out for USC, so I gave the example of a runner who deliberately crashes a catcher who is in the way but not in possession of the ball. They said that the runner would indeed be called out. That was surprising to me, but they claimed it was a form of interference. I gave the play about the game-winning home run where the batter punches F3 on the way around, and they said allow the home run and then report the incident. At least until I get the e-mail, I'm confused.

I also asked about the change in 8-5-G concerning returning to touch a base after an award is made. They claim that if a runner misses a base and passes the next base, and then the ball goes into DBT, we say simply, "Dead ball." Then we wait a few seconds to see which way the runner goes. If he starts to return to touch the missed/left base, then we announce the award and let him return. If he starts to advance, we announce the award and, whether or not he returns to retouch, we uphold an appeal. I had thought that he forfeited his right to return only when he touched the <i>next</i> base after we made the award. They claimed they got their info directly from Merle Butler. (They did not say what to do if the runner just stands still and looks at you.)

On another matter, they say that the "do not pitch" sign does not mean time out in ASA (or OBR, but it does in Fed).

Can anyone add to or clarify any of this?

Speaking FED
 

On another matter, they say that the "do not pitch" sign does not mean time out in ASA (or OBR, but it does in Fed).
I can not speak for ASA, but I can respond to this. That is not true. In FED it is called "Holding up play" (do not pitch) which is different from "Suspension of play" (time-out).

"example of a runner who deliberately crashes a catcher who is in the way but not in possession of the ball. They said that the runner would indeed be called out. That was surprising to me, but they claimed it was a form of interference."

Interference? I suppose if the ball is on the way and you knock the catcher out of the play; and the ball get by and other runners then advance another base, maybe you can call interference. But the catcher did not belong there in the first place so why are we rewarding her with an out?

I've got obstruction; award the run, then eject the runner.
WMB

Yes, I would score the run but eject the runner, too.

The information I've received at these kind of meetings has at times been totally erroneous, and I suspect this may be another example. I also don't see how they could say eject and out for the crash of a catcher without the ball and then turn around and say count the home run when a player throws a punch. I always leave these rules meetings quite frustrated.

I'm also interested in knowing that hand up in Fed is <i>not</i> time out.

Fed Umpire Manual pg 37, section on Time out - Suspension of Play. I am not going to type it all here, but it is very obvious that "holding up" is NOT Time Out.
WMB

WMB nailed it on the head. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bangin.gif

One hand up in FED is to indicate to the pitcher not to start to pitch,
Both hands extended high above the head with a verbal call. As opposed
to the holding-up play, the TIME-OUT call/signal should be forceful, distinct
and very apparent to the fact that play has been suspended. A
distinct PLAY BALL should follow TIME-OUT when play is to resume.

glen

The interpretation from ASA is that the USC supersedes the obstruction, as it's a more serious offense -- "flagrant misconduct" according to Case Book Play 10.8-1. So, if the USC occurs before the runner scoring then the runner is out, and of course ejected, and a dead ball is called. The CB cites Rules 10-8A, 10-1J[3], 10-1K. My understanding is that the only way the run would score is if the USC occurred after the runner touched the plate, then we would have a run, an ejection, and a dead ball.

[Edited by Tap on Mar 17th, 2003 at 06:07 AM]

I agree and that was my answer under the rules. However, the rule was "supposedly" rewritten. Apparently, it has never made it to the book. This has already been brought to the attention of the National Umpire Staff. I was told to use CB 10.8-1 as a reference when making that ruling. I don't agree with it, but mine is not to reason why.

Originally posted by greymule
We've been discussing several plays that I thought I finally had straight but, after attending the New Jersey UIC meeting today, I can see that I was wrong.

<snip>

I also asked about the change in 8-5-G concerning returning to touch a base after an award is made. They claim that if a runner misses a base and passes the next base, and then the ball goes into DBT, we say simply, "Dead ball." Then we wait a few seconds to see which way the runner goes. If he starts to return to touch the missed/left base, then we announce the award and let him return. If he starts to advance, we announce the award and, whether or not he returns to retouch, we uphold an appeal. I had thought that he forfeited his right to return only when he touched the <i>next</i> base after we made the award. They claimed they got their info directly from Merle Butler. (They did not say what to do if the runner just stands still and looks at you.)

Just like a no tag/no touch at the plate, the umpire should hesitate to see any player reaction just that this is during a dead ball period. If there is an indication the runner will return, you allow the return and then announce the award. If the runner seems satisfied where they are or begins to advance (assuming the award), announce the award. Once the award is announced and the runner touches the next base, that runner has now forfeited their right to return and retouch any base left too soon or missed.

On another matter, they say that the "do not pitch" sign does not mean time out in ASA (or OBR, but it does in Fed).

Can anyone add to or clarify any of this?

If you check ASA 10.8, you will see the desciptions of when an umpire may suspend play. Many of them are quite similar to those for which an umpire will "hold up play".

Re: Speaking FED
 

It is penalizing the runner, not rewarding the catcher.
If the catcher was truly guilty of obstruction (impeding the runner), then that's what it is, <u>up to the point when the runner deliberately or flagrantly crashes</u> the catcher (or any fielder) and then it's interference and USC.

<b>Once the award is announced and the runner touches the next base, that runner has now forfeited their right to return and retouch any base left too soon or missed.</b>

This of course is true, but the message I got from the meeting was that the runner was restricted even further. They said that if, after we have waited and watched and made the award, the runner has not begun to return and is on or beyond the first base after the one missed or left too soon, he cannot then return legally. Apparently initiating a return is the key.

Let's get the obvious play out of the way first: Ground ball to F6, who throws the ball into DBT but BR misses 1B. We award 2B. If BR proceeds to touch 2B, he cannot return to 1B. Fine.

But then there's the play where the runner is one base (or even two bases) <i>past</i> the one missed/left too soon when the ball goes into DBT:

BR hits a ball off the LF fence, misses 1B, touches and rounds 2B. Then BR sees F7 firing the ball toward 3B, so BR stops 20 feet off 2B. The ball sails into DBT. BR starts for 3B, so we make the award: home. As BR is approching 3B, the coach says, "Go back and touch 1B." The message I got was that since, at the time of the award, BR was on or beyond the first base of the award (2B) and had not initiated a return, he could not legally return to touch 1B. I thought he could still return until the moment he touched 3B. Now maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to know for sure one way or the other. They also said that once a runner crosses the plate, he cannot return, even if 3B was the base he missed or left too soon.

Does anyone know for certain what the correct ruling is?

Well, I was in the room when Merle Butler explained this one and Emily Alexander, and if I recall properly, Debbi Lauderback specifically asked about this and what it came down to was the base to be considered was the first one touched after the award. However, I can see where you can sell the other.

What you have said is true, but on page 75, "Umpire's Signals," it states "Do not pitch (and time out)." How can it be all the above?

Good Point!
 

If taken literally, seems to be conflicting info. What would you do if, while holding up the pitcher because the batter has one foot out of the box, the runner on 3B steps off to ask her coach something?
WMB

Re: Good Point!
 

OUT! That's assuming all the conditions of pitcher has ball in circle, not playing on runner, etc. Prepare for debate!

And besides that, one of the pitching infractions is pitching while "play is suspended", but there is no rule about pitching while "play is held up". Therefore, when a pitcher attempts to pitch during a holdup, play becomes suspended an instant before the picth is released.

I like it better when the hand up means time out and the pitcher risks a quick pitch if she delivers the ball. Even slow pitch <i>used</i> to be that way, but today we see umps (and I've done it, too) with the hand up and then the go signal for every pitch, as if it's mandatory or something.

In my experience, many SP batters get in the box and say, "Time, please, until I say I'm ready." So I put my hand up. They dig a little dirt, get comfortable, raise the bat, look out to the pitcher, and then say, "OK." Then I take my hand down. The batters are usually polite about it and are not trying to delay the game. Of course, in SP the ball is dead anyway, so we don't have to worry about runners. But in FP, I can see where some tough calls could arise.

Perhaps this is an issue today because pitchers (both SP and FP) simply don't know to give the batter a little time to get set.

BR hits a ball off the LF fence, misses 1B, touches and rounds 2B. Then BR sees F7 firing the ball toward 3B, so BR stops 20 feet off 2B. The ball sails into DBT. BR starts for 3B, so we make the award: home.

That is the same play we received at a DCASA clinic concerning awarding of bases and retouching. However there was no talk about what direction the runner is going or if he/she makes a move one way or another. There was no mention of not being able to get 1 inch from the next awarded base (3rd in our example) and returning to touch 1st base.

I'll bring it up at our next GWASA meeting with one of the members who attended the UIC meeting in Oklahoma to get their understanding and will try to get hold of Judy Cole who went over this play in the DCASA clinic.

While I'm doing that, can someone venture a reason as to why when the ball is dead we would not let them start one way, realize they need to go back and retouch and then let the runner do it?


[Edited by ronald on Mar 18th, 2003 at 11:04 PM]

Please let us know what you find out. I think that the runner, no matter how far past the missed base at the time of the award, should be allowed to return until he touches the next base from where he was at the time of the award.

Concerning the USC, this is from the NJ UIC to me:

<b>#94 Dead ball immediately, eject the batter and bring the runner from third back. Unfortunately this should have been listed as one of the rule clarification[s] (highlighted in the book) and sent out with Merle's comments on the rules. It isn't a new rule[,] just clarification on what is already in the book. We're not going to allow someone to gain when they commit an unsportsmanlike act. If we didn't bring the runner (all runners return) back and allowed the run to score (could be a game ending run)[,] someone could commit an unsportsmanlike act and not be penalized.</b>

It seems to me that this is a new rule, not a clarification. Nowhere in the rule book or the case book does it say that a runner is <i>out</i> for USC, except for crashing a fielder <i>who has the ball.</i> This leaves open, however, whether the USC is penalized from the point of the infraction or the start of the play (TOP). What if a runner touches home and <i>then</i> deliberately crashes the catcher? What if, with a runner on 3B, a batter hits a triple and throws an elbow at F5? Does the run score in these cases, or do we revert to TOP?

I have questions in on those matters.

The direction IS irrelevant. In the case above, once the ball is ruled dead, the umpire should hesitate and allow the runner to do what they want. Remember, during a dead ball period, the runner must be permitted complete their task prior to any further action.

Once the umpire is satisfied the runner is satisfied that they are where they want to be, then you announce the award. Once the award is announced and the runner TOUCHES or passes an awarded base, they may not go back an retouch any base missed or left too soon. It doesn't make a difference if the runner is 65' or 1" away from that bag.

Following is the reason offered by Bernie Profato for the rule change:

"To prevent the possibility that once a base runner advances, they may not return to any base they've gon beyond on the award, This would permit the defensive team to make any appeal as soon as the base runner advanced to or past the next base."

Actually, it was proposed as a rule change, but for some reason didn't get through the general body of the National Council.

You are correct, the "clarification" does not have the support of the rules as presently written.

I was told by my regional UIC that the purpose was to not allow any runs to score on such a play. I was also told to use the casebook play as a recitation if questioned and that if a protest went higher than my position, I would be backed up by the NUS. Therefore, if no runs are to score, I take the runners back to TOP.

Glad to have an answer on the USC question.

Now: BR hits a bases-loaded smash off the fence. Three runs score, and then BR crashes the catcher. Not just a routine crash where he's out but not ejected, but a flagrant, USC crash that warrants ejection. BR is out and ejected and the other three runners go back. If BR was the third out, <i>no runs score.</i> Is that right?

[Edited by greymule on Mar 19th, 2003 at 07:23 AM]

Mike,

Tell me if something is wrong with this ruling or act.

R1 leaves 1st too soon on a fly ball and has passed 2nd when F7 throws a ball that goes out of play. When the ball becomes dead, the PU immediately rules dead ball and with no hesitation says runner is awarded home. Now when the runner is 1 inch from touching 3rd base, which is the next awarded base, may he go back to retouch 1st. It seems that some (unless I missed something) have the sense that you can not. I say that is humbug but what do I know!!!

Thanks

Just my humble little opinion, but we have lived with the rules as written for lo these many years, and trying to push through this rule change as a clarification is leaving too many holes in the scenarios.

Even if the rule change was not passed due to a snafu at the national convention, what's the harm in living with the rule as written for one more year?

Fix it next year with a well thought out, well written rule.

Well, at least reasonably thought through. Well written? That might be asking too much! http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/hoho.gif

Tom,

I agree wholeheartedly. However, my boss gave me a certain direction and it is my job to follow that direction and rule accordingly, not just ignore what I've been told. Just passing along the info I have available.

The "next base" would be the next base in the proper progression as an advancing runner would touch them. In other words, REGARDLESS OF ANY DISTANCE, if the runner was between 2B & 3B when the umpire made the award, the next base would be 3B. Until the moment comes that the runner touches or physically passes 3B, s/he may return and touch any base missed or left too soon.

PLEASE NOTE: Once the runner has touched that "next base", it is not your job to stop them from returning to touch any base missed or left too soon as this is an APPEAL play. If you do that, you have possibly coached the defense.

If they retreat after not being permitted, you let them do whatever they damn well please. However, if the defense appeals at ANY point after that next base was touched and prior to the next pitch, legal or illegal or all that stuff at the end of an inning or game, the umpire is to ignore any return be the runner when not permitted and rule on the appeal.

Unless my memory has failed, it wasn't long ago (2001, I think) that ASA and Fed had the same rule: when the ball went into DBT, a runner who was on or beyond a base missed or left too soon could not return to correct the error (with an exception for balls deliberately thrown away).

Then ASA changed their rule so that a runner <i>could</i> return from no matter where he was when the ball went into DBT. However, they didn't take into account that runners might advance a base or more after the award and then try to retouch. They didn't want somebody taking his award and then, when the coach says, "Jimmy, appeal 1B," start returning to correct his error. This year, they decided to put some limitations on the runner, but they worded the rule badly and didn't seem to consider all the possibilities.

I'm still not sure at exactly what point the runner loses his right to return. Certainly one point is when he advances to the next base after we've made the award.

But what if the play does not involve that type of advance:

Abel hits a dribbler in front of the plate. F2 fields it and throws the ball wild over F3. As the ball rolls down the line into foul territory, Abel misses 1B. Abel rounds 2B, and the ball then goes out of play. We say, "Dead ball." Abel goes back to 2B and stands there. We award 2B. Can Abel now go back to touch 1B? If not, is it because he stopped and we have decided the play is over? In the other play, where the runner around 2B is awarded home, starts toward 3B, and then returns at the coach's direction to touch 1B, is he allowed to return because he never stopping moving enough to end the play?

[Edited by greymule on Mar 19th, 2003 at 12:11 PM]

Thanks Mike.

I thought it was that way but I got the sense that others are getting a different understanding from what I am reading of their posts.

When the ball is ruled dead, the umpire hesitates to see if the runner is going to react and retouch the missed base or base left too soon. If the coach is in the process of telling him/her to return, you are also going to allow that as long as SOMETHING in that fashion is occuring prior to you judging all action is obviously over.

At that point, the umpire announces the award. The "next base" is the next base touched when not returning to retouch any base. If a runner is standing on an awarded base AFTER the award is announced, they have obviously fulfilled that part of the rule which prohibits a runner from legally returning to retouch any base. After this base is touched or passed, any return by the runner is NOT valid and to be ignored by the umpire when ruling on a possible appeal.

The next question will be: But the book says that if the runner advances "to and passes", not touch. That comment would be correct. However, if the runner touches the "next base" and stands there, just how long are you going to wait until you move on with the ball game? If the defense then appeals, if you are going to support this argument, then you must let the runner return and retouch the questioned base.

Thanks, everybody. I finally have it straight. I think I can rule on whatever happens.

ASA should write its rules more carefully. They should also think about the extended ramifications a new rule can have. The new rule about calling a player <i>out</i> for throwing a bat is a case in point.